Placebo effects in the extreme

[jkeny]

Could you please find and quote me or redact your statement if you can't back it up?

Sure

Should an "honest objectivist" not be capable of entertaining that their analysis/measurements are not necessarily the "truth" as far as auditory perception is concerned?

Sure they can. Done all the time.

 

[GaryProtein]

How deliciously ironic that this text is an example of what you claim not to be interested in.

For anyone with an interest to learn (as opposed to pontificate beyond their level of understanding) I recommend this TED talk : https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffman_do_we_see_reality_as_it_is?language=en

He states what I was referring to.

People's perception of reality is often WRONG.

 

[jkeny]

He states what I was referring to.

People's perception of reality is often WRONG.

I think you should view that video again as you have grossly misrepresented it in your one-line summary.

 

[GaryProtein]

You misunderstand - I was not talking about your perception
You used the simple visual example where it can be shown to be a solid block of colour yet we perceive it as a gradient shaded block.
Now you extrapolate this simplistic analysis to an audio stream.
Are you claiming that a complete analysis of audio streams can be done (the "reality" known), compared to auditory perception & the differences analysed?

IMPOSSIBLE. As I said before, I was NOT referring to audio--just the gray image.

I can't continue when you read into the specific things I refer to and make more out of them than I intend. I am very simple, I like simple things at face value, but you are making more of it than the words relate.

 

[opus112]

People's perception of reality is often WRONG.

There's a transcript of his talk available, just point out where he says this. Perhaps you've taken it out of context.

 

[jkeny]

IMPOSSIBLE. As I said before, I was NOT referring to audio--just the gray image.

OK, I see you did say this before. I extrapolated this statement to be a more generalisable one but if you didn't mean it as generalisable then I apologise. So, let me get this straight - are you saying that this reality Vs perception difference only applies to the grey image, nothing else, not to audio?

I can't continue when you read into the specific things I refer to and make more out of them than I intend. I am very simple, I like simple things at face value, but you are making more of it than the words relate.

If you make it clear what you are saying then there can be no misinterpretation. So far you have not done so. Care to correct the situation? What is your statement regarding audio which equates to what you said about the coloured bar example?

 

[Jinjuku]

Sure

John you said "You stated that objectivists admit to the limitations of their measurements"

I'll ask again: Please find a post of mine in relation to this. If you can't find it redact it. If you won't redact it I'll simply report it and have the lie removed from the thread.

 

[opus112]

If you won't redact it I'll simply report it and have the lie removed from the thread.

What makes you think a mod will follow your orders?

 

[BlueFox]

John you said "You stated that objectivists admit to the limitations of their measurements"

I'll ask again: Please find a post of mine in relation to this. If you can't find it redact it. If you won't redact it I'll simply report it and have the lie removed from the thread.

For an individual who uses multiple identities and has been banned from the Polk forum for that, along with trolling, you sure are arrogant. How did your request to get the Audioquest CEO banned go?

 

[Jinjuku]

For an individual who uses multiple identities and has been banned from the Polk forum for that, along with trolling, you sure are arrogant. How did your request to get the Audioquest CEO banned go?

Your memory is even more unreliable than your ears. I never asked for Bill Low to be banned.

At least you learned that Jitter can't be stored as part of a file on a Hard Drive

 

[Jinjuku]

What makes you think a mod will follow your orders?

I don't know. The reasonableness of the request?

 

[BE718]

My take is that the "better" is not as simple as you trying to imply - in conventional technical aspects, the copy above is inferior, but it may have altered sufficiently in characteristics such that the some signature characteristics of the playback system being used, which could give the sound an unpleasant patina, were not so obviously present - the playback system is not a black box in this test, it plays a major part in the final presentation ... I have heard many severely "over-etched" systems playing - anything that reduces the impact of that "distortion" would be a blessing, for me.

Whilst I take your point, in this instance the participants had been supplied the files to listen at home on their own systems, the ones I quizzed about it (not everyone I admit) found the same result there.

The system used in the test is by any standard good without any "unpleasant patina" found by any of the participants.

 

[opus112]

The reasonableness of the request?

Well now you say its a request it would stand a slightly better chance. At least with Amir, he does warm to people being polite.

 

[Jinjuku]

Well now you say its a request it would stand a slightly better chance. At least with Amir, he does warm to people being polite.

Impoliteness is de rigueur here. Lying about what someone said and patently unable to back it up is quite another.

 

[opus112]

Impoliteness is de rigueur here.

Any evidence of that?

Lying about what someone said and patently unable to back it up is quite another.

And is there any evidence of any lying going on? Bear in mind that to substantiate a claim of lying you'd need to be a mind-reader of sorts, to know that the person knows they're delivering untruths.

 

[BlueFox]

Your memory is even more unreliable than your ears. I never asked for Bill Low to be banned.

Yes, you are correct in those words. You only asked for him to be censored, and not allowed to 'continue' unless he meets your criteria. Your arrogance, and ignorance, knows no bound.

"This will be a first for any forum but I feel I need to ask:

Could Mr. Low please be required to provide actual data, peer reviewed journals, or independently re-produced results? Barring that posts moderated?

I apologize in advance if it's over stepping. From my view point it's not unreasonable given the context of the thread (HDMI and not straight analog) and the sub forum (measurements).

The enough rope to hang himself with has already been done I just don't want to have to keep seeing the swaying corpse.

Or maybe the requirement for him to continue is to submit to a properly bias controlled evaluation before he comments further."

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...st-HDMI-cables&p=377383&viewfull=1#post377383

 

[BE718]

Here's where I differ - they all gave their listening impressions favouring the re-recorded track. You use the stock objectivist's statement that this because of added distortion. You have not measured this - it's just your "expert opinion". How do you know that the re-recording has not masked some artifact that was perceived as less natural in the original? What output filter settings were used in the MDAC playback? I guess you are not one of those "objectivists who are not afraid to explore what they heard, show why they heard it" - audiophiles prefer distortion explains it all.

First off you are using your playback system which you claim has no noise issues. Therefore, according to you, there's no need for the Intona's galvanic isolation. I seem to remember your listening impressions of the Intona were that you couldn't make up your mind if it was placebo or not. Yet in a blind test there was a distinct preference for it when used with your main system. So we have a blind test, which you seem to distrust & predict a null result next time around.

When you substitute a laptop for your PC, the Regen is preferred over the Intona. Is this because your laptop's USB port has inferior signal quality to your PC's USB port?

Your initial comments on the Regen Vs Intona results "this example just confirms my opinions regarding how flawed people's (including my own) subjective opinions can be." Your desire to jump to premature conclusions demonstrates an overriding bias rather than the image of objectivists being finagled here as "not afraid to explore what they heard, show why they heard it"

Its not a stock answer. Distortion in this context is obviously referring to general changes in the sound and not specifics.

Yes I have measured it. I know what changes the MDAC makes with its filters. I know the characteristics of the ADC.

You are reaching JK. Everyone expressed how fantastic they thought the (original) test tracks sounded - they just preferred overall the inferior copy. Your point about masking is simply not correct as they comments expressed things like "more detail", "lower noise". they just thought it was better - period.


You have completely missed the point with the noise issues. Yes, my system does not have any noise issues - you have seen the plots. If you paid attention you would know that it was not my system used for the test. Its properties are unknown to me. Also if you paid attention you would have noted that it was an Aries and laptop. Whilst you point could be valid, and we discussed precisely this, you have chosen to ignore the fact that everyone was really struggling to discern any difference between direct in and the usb devices. This was to the extent that I observed people looking to each other for cues as to which way to jump.

I will perform a longer test next time we get together and I am fairly confident the result will come out close to 50/50, ie guesswork.

The conclusion isnt flawed. People like yourself make out the differences are easily audible, when in reality the moment you put people under the most simple and unobtrusive controls their self lauded subjective aural capabilities seem to evaporate.

 

[fas42]

Whilst I take your point, in this instance the participants had been supplied the files to listen at home on their own systems, the ones I quizzed about it (not everyone I admit) found the same result there.

The system used in the test is by any standard good without any "unpleasant patina" found by any of the participants.

Okay, then I would be interested in what the track was - perhaps the EQ and mastering was such that it could easily provoke a system to show the sound in less than an ideal light - I'm thinking of something like Adele 21 here; toning down any track from the latter would typically be more palatable to most ...

My experiences have shown me, over and over again, that it is far too easy to judge whether a system, or recording, or format has 'problems' or not - only to realise later that I didn't have the full story - I've tripped myself up, many, many times over the years ... .

 

[opus112]

I think deep down, most people damn well know they can not trust their ears

What makes you think so?

People communicate using their ears in day to day life, do you think people mostly distrust what they hear when others are speaking?

 

[fas42]

But those of us with both digital and analog understand the strengths and weaknesses of each medium. Any one can hear the difference, but when I needle drop in 24/96, store in 24/96 and play back in 24/96 digital fully replicates the vinyl, so I have been convinced for a long time that it is almost all in the recording process itself, atleast enough that the differences are not possible to hear when I do my limited blind tests.

Tom, the main weakness I see with vinyl is that it can't always mimic digital; as you say, the converse is not a problem. But such a digital clip that vinyl can't "encode" might easily be more difficult to reproduce cleanly for a playback system - again, the recording in itself is not the problem.

I've been at a friend's, with a classical piece - he had the vinyl, I the CD - his vinyl sounded "wrong" at first, we did some fine tuning of his rig ... and, lo and behold, we got the 2 formats to synch, subjectively - both versions just produced music, the impact of the piece as an 'art' was what registered, and they matched ...