Our planet Earth | Climate changes | Science | Global Warming

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infinitely baffled

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I think the forum should BAN posts about climate change, just like religon, politics, and guns. Because for so many the subject has become a religon, and it is fully political.

A primary tenent of scientific inquiry is skepticism, and "what else might explain that" questioning. When you find manipulated data and back room (forum) collaboration to drive the conclusions, as a scientist one ought to become more skeptical, not less.

Indeed. That is why I have linked with the raw data.
Would you perhaps take a brief look at the six graphs I linked to, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what else might cause the measured increases in surface temperature, ocean temperature, sea level rises and sea ice reductions.....other than global warming?
 

infinitely baffled

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Bobvin

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I don't accept the assumptions given the amount of information that has shown manipulation of the data to fit the model. That is the opposite of science.
 

infinitely baffled

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I don't accept the assumptions given the amount of information that has shown manipulation of the data to fit the model. That is the opposite of science.

I've stayed away from models as they are only as good as the data they are fed and the way that data is interpreted, so are open to dispute.

There are however no assumptions involved in measuring temperature, or sea level rises, or quantity of co2 in the atmosphere
 

rbbert

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I think I have posted before that the sad thing about climate change deniers is that they apparently care only about themselves, not their descendants, hunanity or the planet. None (or at most few) of them will be around to experience the likely catastrophe when (not if) it occurs.
 

infinitely baffled

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jazdoc

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The use of the term "denier"; by linking it to Holocaust deniers is intended to shut down debate and the pursuit of truth; i.e. science. This is much like labelling someone 'racist' or [insert your favorite]-phobic during a policy debate...it immediately shuts down discussion.

The release of the climategate emails demonstrated that the IPCC is hardly a beacon of scientific integrity. Rather, it is dominated by a few individuals i.e. Phil Jones and Michael Mann, who have staked their lucrative careers on a theory. They 'peer review' each others papers and bully those who do not agree with their conclusions and methods. They routinely fail to share their data with the rest of the community. They are anti-science.
 

WLVCA

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Factcheck.org disputes your claim that the emails hacked from the IPCC impugn its scientific integrity.

Factcheck.org is not a liberal organization and is funded by the Annenberg Foundation. Walter Annenberg was appointed ambassador to Great Britain by Richard Nixon and was a close friend and adviser to Ronald Reagan.

Here is a link to their view on the subject.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/

We only have one planet and little likelihood of developing light speed arks to transport humanity to a friendly planet many light years away in the near future isn't a strong possibility.

When considering the protection of the earth's environment would it not make sense to err on the side of caution?

If the climate change "disputers" (I didn't say deniers :) ) are wrong, it could mean the end of humanity.
 

NorthStar

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Almost every year we set new temperature records, extremely hot. Right now on the American west coast (USA & Canada) we have record number forest fires due to extreme heat and dryness. Those fires smoke our atmosphere, heat keeps carbon monoxide low and envelops us in a cloud of deadly smog. In some countries of China people are wearing masks and the visibility is only few feet. Our eyes get affected too.

If we ban climate changes and temperature levels and scientific analyses and the effects of fossil fuels and of deforestation on our planet, etc., we'll be left only with the music playing. You decide, I'll go the way of the democracy.
 

infinitely baffled

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The use of the term "denier"; by linking it to Holocaust deniers is intended to shut down debate and the pursuit of truth; i.e. science. This is much like labelling someone 'racist' or [insert your favorite]-phobic during a policy debate...it immediately shuts down discussion.

The release of the climategate emails demonstrated that the IPCC is hardly a beacon of scientific integrity. Rather, it is dominated by a few individuals i.e. Phil Jones and Michael Mann, who have staked their lucrative careers on a theory. They 'peer review' each others papers and bully those who do not agree with their conclusions and methods. They routinely fail to share their data with the rest of the community. They are anti-science.

Denier is widespread term used to describe someone who rejects scientific or historically provable facts. No one here is talking about the Holocaust.
However your use of the term 'climategate' is a rather more clear attempt to smear by directly invoking political scandal.
It should be noted that the so called 'climategate emails were a concerted attempt to deceive and was thoroughly debunked, as in here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy#/editor/0

And I believe 'anti-science' would cover the death threats made to climate scientists, together with the threat that they should not publish further scientific papers supporting the accepted theory of anthropogenic global warming, covered in the link.
Indeed the whole 'climategate controversy was a clear attempt to distract and manipulate public opinion at a crucial time:

Among the scientists whose emails were disclosed, the CRU's researchers said in a statement that the emails had been taken out of context and merely reflected an honest exchange of ideas. Michael Mann, director of Pennsylvania State University's Earth System Science Center, said that sceptics were "taking these words totally out of context to make something trivial appear nefarious",[18] and called the entire incident a careful, "high-level, orchestrated smear campaign to distract the public about the nature of the climate change problem."[63] Kevin E. Trenberth of the National Center for Atmospheric Research said that he was appalled at the release of the emails but thought that it might backfire against climate sceptics, as the messages would show "the integrity of scientists."[20] He also said that climate change sceptics had selectively quoted words and phrases out of context, and that the timing suggested an attempt to undermine talks at the December 2009 Copenhagen global climate summit.[64] Tom Wigley, a former director of the CRU and now head of the US National Center for Atmospheric Research, condemned the threats that he and other colleagues had received as "truly stomach-turning", and commented: "None of it affects the science one iota. Accusations of data distortion or faking are baseless. I can rebut and explain all of the apparently incriminating e-mails that I have looked at, but it is going to be very time consuming to do so."[50] In relation to the harassment that he and his colleagues were experiencing, he said: "This sort of thing has been going on at a much lower level for almost 20 years and there have been other outbursts of this sort of behaviour – criticism and abusive emails and things like that in the past. So this is a worse manifestation but it's happened before so it's not that surprising."[65]

Other prominent climate scientists, such as Richard Somerville, called the incident a smear campaign.[66] David Reay of the University of Edinburgh said that the CRU "is just one of many climate-research institutes that provide the underlying scientific basis for climate policy at national and international levels. The conspiracy theorists may be having a field day, but if they really knew academia they would also know that every published paper and data set is continually put through the wringer by other independent research groups. The information that makes it into the IPCC reports is some of the most rigorously tested and debated in any area of science."[50] Stephen Schneider compared the political attacks on climate scientists to the witch-hunts of McCarthyism.[67]
 

infinitely baffled

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Here's one of your prominent leaders that you guys want to hand over the world to, he makes his climate change claims in minute 2:00 but he's worth listening to from the beginning how he gets there is priceless.


david

I'd like to address this if I may
If I were to ask a six year old to explain particle physics I would doubtless witness something equally incoherent and non-sensical.
But this would not be an accurate depiction of the science as currently understood, and to portray it as such would be deceitful.

What I am more concerned about is the absence of scientific understanding demonstrated by those with current responsibility for environmental and climate policy, such as Senator 'snowball'Jim 'I don't know the difference between weather and climate' Inhofe, current chairman of the Senate committe on Scienice and the Environment

 

ddk

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I'm not wrong at all IPCC models have been challenged and debunked! And as far as Guardian goes, it's not highly respected. For years they were pushing global heating till they found out that the world was cooling so now it's climate change.

We saw one of those of those home grown leaders in the above video, do you want more, plenty more available?

Climate isn't in dispute it's a natural occurrence the actual effects of carbon is what's up for debate and agenda of those behind pushing international regulations.

david


How wrong can you be in one post?
Let's start at the beginning....

The guardian is a highly respected broadsheet, not a tabloid as you incorrectly assert.
The source is not 'who knows where' , but the IPCC. Which as you are apparently ignorant of, is the Intergovermental Panel on Climate Change, the body that collates peer reviewed scientific papers for the benefit of policy makers and the public at large, and on whose advice climate policy is formulated. This is a peer reviewed evidence based process, so 'belief is only required if you oppose the science

'The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) was established in 1988 by the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) and the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) in recognition of the problem of global warming. Through the IPCC, climate experts from around the world synthesize the most recent climate science findings every five to seven years and present their report to the world’s political leaders. The IPCC has issued comprehensive assessments in 1990, 1996, 2001 and most recently the Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) released in 2007.

AR4 is the most comprehensive synthesis of climate change science to date. Experts from more than 130 countries contributed to this assessment, which represents six years of work. More than 450 lead authors have received input from more than 800 contributing authors, and an additional 2,500 experts reviewed the draft documents.

AR4 comprises three sections, or working groups, that deal with the scientific basis of global warming (Working Group I), its consequences (Working Group II), and options for slowing the trend (Working Group III). The IPCC released summaries of the three working group documents over the course of 2007, culminating in the publication of the final “synthesis report” at the end of the year.

The inclusive process by which IPCC assessments are developed and accepted by its members ensures exceptional scientific credibility. As such, AR4 has the potential to play a key role in informing decision makers as they shape climate policies over the next several years.

Btw I have never heard of your 'prominent leader' in the clip.
What are his scientific credentials?
 

infinitely baffled

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I'm not wrong at all IPCC models have been challenged and debunked! And as far as Guardian goes, it's not highly respected. For years they were pushing global heating till they found out that the world was cooling so now it's climate change.

We saw one of those of those home grown leaders in the above video, do you want more, plenty more available?

Climate isn't in dispute it's a natural occurrence the actual effects of carbon is what's up for debate and agenda of those behind pushing international regulations.

david

Please can you link to the source of your claims.
Opinions are like axxxxxxxs; everyone has one
 

infinitely baffled

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Watch the videos linked in my earlier posts, no opinions, facts and google the subject.

david

Yes but what is the scientific basis for those assertions?
I have given my evidence, please provide yours

Or are you saying I need to find and provide the evidence to back up your claims?
That would certainly be a novel approach to academic debate
 

ddk

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An article by a reporter in the Guardian is your scientific evidence?

Watch this video regarding how manipulated the and off IPCC models are. Also carbon, the building block of life as cause of climate change is only a theory and there's not enough evidence there at all.

http://www.globalwarming.org/2016/0...-warming-dr-christy-sets-the-record-straight/

https://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/20610-computer-models-vs-climate-reality

https://judithcurry.com/2015/12/17/climate-models-versus-climate-reality/



david




Yes but what is the scientific basis for those assertions?
I have given my evidence, please provide yours

Or are you saying I need to find and provide the evidence to back up your claims?
 

NorthStar

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I live on the west coast, like many other members here (Pacific Ocean; across is Japan): http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episod...ared-cameras-could-be-game-changers-1.4204045

I don't need any scientists to realize the situation in the last forty plus years of being around; twenty years on the B.C. interior and twenty-two years on the Island.
The other two decades I lived in the snow...Quebec. Right now that snow is all melted, same as in New York City and New Jersey.
This year Los Angeles and San Diego and Phoenix, Arizona and Reno/Las Vegas, Nevada are hot. Some airports closed because it was too hot, they need AC on the tarmac and ice on the plane's wings and body. The future generations of planes will be made of composite material that can be temperature controlled...on the outside as in the inside.
 
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rbbert

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Although certainly a worthy topic (and important!), like so many other similar threads this one seems to be going around in circles :(
 

ddk

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Infinite,






david


Denier is widespread term used to describe someone who rejects scientific or historically provable facts. No one here is talking about the Holocaust.
However your use of the term 'climategate' is a rather more clear attempt to smear by directly invoking political scandal.
It should be noted that the so called 'climategate emails were a concerted attempt to deceive and was thoroughly debunked, as in here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy#/editor/0

And I believe 'anti-science' would cover the death threats made to climate scientists, together with the threat that they should not publish further scientific papers supporting the accepted theory of anthropogenic global warming, covered in the link.
Indeed the whole 'climategate controversy was a clear attempt to distract and manipulate public opinion at a crucial time:

Among the scientists whose emails were disclosed, the CRU's researchers said in a statement that the emails had been taken out of context and merely reflected an honest exchange of ideas. Michael Mann, director of Pennsylvania State University's Earth System Science Center, said that sceptics were "taking these words totally out of context to make something trivial appear nefarious",[18] and called the entire incident a careful, "high-level, orchestrated smear campaign to distract the public about the nature of the climate change problem."[63] Kevin E. Trenberth of the National Center for Atmospheric Research said that he was appalled at the release of the emails but thought that it might backfire against climate sceptics, as the messages would show "the integrity of scientists."[20] He also said that climate change sceptics had selectively quoted words and phrases out of context, and that the timing suggested an attempt to undermine talks at the December 2009 Copenhagen global climate summit.[64] Tom Wigley, a former director of the CRU and now head of the US National Center for Atmospheric Research, condemned the threats that he and other colleagues had received as "truly stomach-turning", and commented: "None of it affects the science one iota. Accusations of data distortion or faking are baseless. I can rebut and explain all of the apparently incriminating e-mails that I have looked at, but it is going to be very time consuming to do so."[50] In relation to the harassment that he and his colleagues were experiencing, he said: "This sort of thing has been going on at a much lower level for almost 20 years and there have been other outbursts of this sort of behaviour – criticism and abusive emails and things like that in the past. So this is a worse manifestation but it's happened before so it's not that surprising."[65]

Other prominent climate scientists, such as Richard Somerville, called the incident a smear campaign.[66] David Reay of the University of Edinburgh said that the CRU "is just one of many climate-research institutes that provide the underlying scientific basis for climate policy at national and international levels. The conspiracy theorists may be having a field day, but if they really knew academia they would also know that every published paper and data set is continually put through the wringer by other independent research groups. The information that makes it into the IPCC reports is some of the most rigorously tested and debated in any area of science."[50] Stephen Schneider compared the political attacks on climate scientists to the witch-hunts of McCarthyism.[67]
 

RogerD

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I live on the west coast, like many other members here (Pacific Ocean; across is Japan): http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episod...ared-cameras-could-be-game-changers-1.4204045

I don't need any scientists to realize the situation in the last forty plus years of being around; twenty years on the B.C. interior and twenty-two years on the Island.
The other two decades I lived in the snow...Quebec. Right now that snow is all melted, same as in New York City and New Jersey.
This year Los Angeles and San Diego and Phoenix, Arizona and Reno/Las Vegas, Nevada are hot. Some airports closed because it was too hot, they need AC on the tarmac and ice on the plane's wings and body. The future generations of planes will be made of composite material that can be temperature controlled...on the outside as in the inside.

Bob,

I have lived in the Western U.S. all my life. Growing up in Northern California was extremely wet until about 1980 and the wet cycle reversed itself and a dry cycle started. This last winter was a record wet winter in Northern Nevada. I hope it continues,but right now the Southwest is again experiencing another heat wave.
 
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