One DAC To Rule Them All.... - Introducing the Kassandra from Aries Cerat

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Wisnon, don't get me started on beyond-pricey stuff. And if it really doesn't play quad dsd, well...

 

[wisnon]

From the AD1865 datasheet: "... The DACs on the AD1865 chip employ a partially segmented architecture. The first four MSBs of each DAC are segmented into 15 elements. The 14 LSBs are produced using standard R-2R techniques. Segment and R-2R resistors are laser trimmed to provide extremely low total harmonic distortion. ..."

What would be the difference between a multibit DAC & a R2R DAC?

A chip vs a discrete ladder array? It seems the 1865 is a hybrid of sorts.
BB1704 and AD1865 are R2R but they are dac chips still rather than being a discrete solution.

 

[wisnon]

It's sad when we have to develop political correctness in how we post or entitle a thread. IMO it was one man's exuberance to discuss his new DAC.
I for one am interested in learning about this DAC without the same people making the same silly jokes. Typically it is these new innovations that trickle down to offshoot products at affordable prices that we can all use. And yes how interesting that no one making similar products are the result of such similar comments.

Joshua, I for one am interested in knowing some more about your DAC

I too am interested, however I dont yet see the great innovation you allude to. What I see is a no PARTS compromise build in a fairly conventional design. Thus, everything is massively overspecified....sort of AudioNote taken to further extremes.

Now, I am no techie, but I dont see things like Lianotec, Phasure NOS1a type of scheme, Chord's FPGA with 166 DSP cores in parallel with extremely long filters with 164K taps, -180db noise floor, -350db noise shapers, chipless DSD, REAL galvanic isolation, direct chip output to drive amps (no output stage needed), lossless digital attenuation, optical-voltage regulated vol control like Empirical speaks of, etc.

None of these things may make much difference to perceived SQ, but at least they present a story of innovation. I dont see that with the Aries so far....but I await.

BelieveHifi seems like a personable fellow and I am willing to be receptive to what he has to say.

 

[Aries Cerat]

Good evening

Allow me to introduce myself.I am Stavros Danos,owner of Aries Cerat and designer of the mentioned DAC.

I am not used to a crowd massively ridiculing a new member and any new product trying to make an entry,but i guess you cannot stop people from "having fun" .

I guess the thread took it's course when the first question someone asks about a new product ,is the price/weight ratio.

I will try to clarify some info,and please excuse me if do not follow the thread much.Please allow my to avoid il-intentioned questions and attitude.

The AD1865 IS an R2R ladder dac.The four MSB are "formed" from an 15 switched-element(resistor) array,where the rest 14 bit is R2R or ladder.

The 16(or 24) ICs per channel ,are used to form the actual converter,which is 19 bit.19 bit are more than enough ,as your favorite recording will actually have a dynamic range equivalent of around 10-12 bit.everything else is random noise.This is for every recording.

The whole point is HOW this 10-12 bit of real information are converted.

I will not go into the dynamic range of any amplifier-speaker combo,which is the equivalent of around 10 bit ,and this is for a very few absolutely top audio systems out there.


Long story short,anyone interested in a new converter,first chooses couple for for comparison, listens,and if inside budget decides.
No reason why anyone including myself would bash something that i did not listen, not interested in,or have no complete picture of what it is.
Those who are interested always find a way to listen,and ask for tech details.Fighting in public forums is not my thing.



Will leave you gents alone having fun

Stavros

 

[wisnon]

Sorry Stavros, but the HEADLINE invited the scrutiny. There is no way to pretend that hyperbole does not beget more hyperbolic reactions (both action and reaction were lighthearted enough in my book). No need for thin skins.

In any case, I saw no vitriol here and a lot of fun poking while people waited for more details....about your bespoke design. The Chip info is AD design and can be looked up online easily. Your implemenation is something else.

Of course actual audition will be most compelling, but that wont happen for a while and given the weight, its not a luggable component.

Your feedback is most welcome and you are invited to contribute more. People have had their 15 mins of fun and now its time to hear more details...rather than hyperbole. BTW, The Cerat Dac is not new to me. If one does a search, it was posted by Bonzo or someone else a year ago, in response to overspecced power supplies.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Gentleman, Gentleman, Gentleman.....

It is one thing to have fun ,but quite another to have fun without the host being present to enjoy the festivities. Shame on you for leaving me out

Anyway, jokes aside lets do a social experiment since price has been discussed a number of times with a high degree of...flair


So we take the 35k and the 82k and strip the cost of the dealer and go the direct to market route.
--I have no one to lift the 120/240lbs chassis so I get sued for breaking the backs of my customers and the DAC is shattered into a thousand pieces..
--I have no one to do the tube installations properly so the customer blows up the DAC burning down the house and killing the beloved dog
--If the don't manage to blow up the DAC then when they try to Bias the DAC themselves they electrocute themselves and file a lawsuit if they survive...

Lets say I take the Lampizator Route and strip out the costs for shows, marketing and such and rely on word of mouth
--I have the DAC sit in its crate...waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting....phone rings!!! Oh it is just a telemarketer....


I jest folks, but the reality is the I can and would be more than happy to adjust pricing to make it affordable to the masses. And in seriousness I will, but I know whether it is priced wheres it's at or any other price lower than that it is not going to sell unless you listen to it first. No one said, I WAS going to visit your room at CES, but because I can't afford that price I changed my mind lol. Until a line forms with a line of people credit cards in hand we'll keep things as we are used to.

I don't take any offense to the pricing model as it an industry happenstance and not a Joshua/Aries Cerat thing. If a guy has 1k, 5k, 10k, set of cables he is not going to take anyone serious who is going to market with a cable at half, 1/3, 1/10 of the cost of his current loom. Whether we admit it or not Pride is just as much a part of this industry as the music that flows out.

So whether you like the price, don't like the price...think I'm dead sexy or don't.... the fact remains, most of whom will buy these electronics are those who already have electronics priced in this category and we are going to compete on sonics.

But since I like all of you I am going to offer a special deal on the signature edition. Ready?

81,999 if you act in the next 24 hours! No need to thank me

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Sorry Stavros, but the HEADLINE invited the scrutiny. There is no way to pretend that hyperbole does not beget more hyperbolic reactions (both action an reaction were lighthearted enough in my book). No need for thin skins.

In any case, I saw no vitriol here and a lot of fun poking while people waited for more details....about your bespoke design. The Chip info is AD desgin and can be looked up online easily. Your implemenation is something else.

Of course actual audion will be most compelling, but that wont happen for a while and given the weight, its not a luggable component.

Your feedback is most welcome and you are invited to contribute more. People have had their 15 mins of fun and now its time to hear more details...rather than hyperbole. BTW, The Cerat Dac is not new to me. If one does a search, it was posted by Bonzo or someone else a year ago, in response to overspecced power supplies.

It is also worth noting that I did post in the Power/Pre section with 4 tried and true innovations Aries Cerat has brought to market. A preamplifier with a negative output impedence..a first SE OTL design...and not one post with a question or interest. No one likes the guy that plays nice and ask people to look at their technology... we love the guy with the big hairy balls who bust open the door with a dual pistols in slow motion

 

[dallasjustice]

Good evening]The 16(or 24) ICs per channel ,are used to form the actual converter,which is 19 bit.19 bit are more than enough ,as your favorite recording will actually have a dynamic range equivalent of around 10-12 bit.everything else is random noise.This is for every recording.

The whole point is HOW this 10-12 bit of real information are converted.

I will not go into the dynamic range of any amplifier-speaker combo,which is the equivalent of around 10 bit ,and this is for a very few absolutely top audio systems out there.

Your DAC will not handle a 24 bit file without truncating the bits down to 18 bits. IMO, it is misleading for the distributor to claim your DAC can handle 24 bit 384khz. It doesn't. It truncates the original 24 bit file down to 18 bit 384khz. Bit truncation is not good because there will remain deterministic quantization error related to the signal . It's always best to apply dither in this case, IMO. Of course, this can be done in the server.

 

[wisnon]

It is also worth noting that I did post in the Power/Pre section with 4 tried and true innovations Aries Cerat has brought to market. A preamplifier with a negative output impedence..a first SE OTL design...and not one post with a question or interest. No one likes the guy that plays nice and ask people to look at their technology... we love the guy with the big hairy balls who bust open the door with a dual pistols in slow motion

I life in Switzerland and long ago have an amp with neg output impedance...ROWEN ONLy sells in Switzerland:
http://rowen.ch/en/negimp.php

You are late! LoL

The Aries Dac was profile here a year ago, so people know about it. The distinguishing feature seems to ve the vastly overspecced build. Do you have more info to bring to the table?

I do like your style though and your good humour.

 

[Aries Cerat]

Your DAC will not handle a 24 bit file without truncating the bits down to 18 bits. IMO, it is misleading for the distributor to claim your DAC can handle 24 bit 384khz. It doesn't. It truncates the original 24 bit file down to 18 bit 384khz. Bit truncation is not good because there will remain deterministic quantization error related to the signal . It's always best to apply dither in this case, IMO. Of course, this can be done in the server.

That would have importance IF there is indeed information below 18bits,which is not the case in all recordings.It is just random noise in all recordings.Dithering would have benefit when the signal below the first 18bit is not random noise,which again is not the case.

Misleading is a strong word,which has no place in our company.

 

[Aries Cerat]

I life in Switzerland and long ago have an amp with neg output impedance...ROWEN ONLy sells in Switzerland:
http://rowen.ch/en/negimp.php

You are late! LoL

The Aries Dac was profile here a year ago, so people know about it. The distinguishing feature seems to ve the vastly overspecced build. Do you have more info to bring to the table?

I do like your style though and your good humour.

In that case,it is done with feedback-feedforward combination,which is not the case with the NOIS, which has neither.Again....

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Your DAC will not handle a 24 bit file without truncating the bits down to 18 bits. IMO, it is misleading for the distributor to claim your DAC can handle 24 bit 384khz. It doesn't. It truncates the original 24 bit file down to 18 bit 384khz. Bit truncation is not good because there will remain deterministic quantization error related to the signal . It's always best to apply dither in this case, IMO. Of course, this can be done in the server.

Well since I live in Austin and you live in Dallas why don't you round up the boys and we can meet after CES at Albert's place to put it up against anything anyone wants to bring. Then we can report back here and go back to talking about price

 

[wisnon]

Gentleman, Gentleman, Gentleman.....

It is one thing to have fun ,but quite another to have fun without the host being present to enjoy the festivities. Shame on you for leaving me out

Anyway, jokes aside lets do a social experiment since price has been discussed a number of times with a high degree of...flair


So we take the 35k and the 82k and strip the cost of the dealer and go the direct to market route.
--I have no one to lift the 120/240lbs chassis so I get sued for breaking the backs of my customers and the DAC is shattered into a thousand pieces..
--I have no one to do the tube installations properly so the customer blows up the DAC burning down the house and killing the beloved dog
--If the don't manage to blow up the DAC then when they try to Bias the DAC themselves they electrocute themselves and file a lawsuit if they survive...

Lets say I take the Lampizator Route and strip out the costs for shows, marketing and such and rely on word of mouth
--I have the DAC sit in its crate...waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting....phone rings!!! Oh it is just a telemarketer....


I jest folks, but the reality is the I can and would be more than happy to adjust pricing to make it affordable to the masses. And in seriousness I will, but I know whether it is priced wheres it's at or any other price lower than that it is not going to sell unless you listen to it first. No one said, I WAS going to visit your room at CES, but because I can't afford that price I changed my mind lol. Until a line forms with a line of people credit cards in hand we'll keep things as we are used to.

I don't take any offense to the pricing model as it an industry happenstance and not a Joshua/Aries Cerat thing. If a guy has 1k, 5k, 10k, set of cables he is not going to take anyone serious who is going to market with a cable at half, 1/3, 1/10 of the cost of his current loom. Whether we admit it or not Pride is just as much a part of this industry as the music that flows out.

So whether you like the price, don't like the price...think I'm dead sexy or don't.... the fact remains, most of whom will buy these electronics are those who already have electronics priced in this category and we are going to compete on sonics.

But since I like all of you I am going to offer a special deal on the signature edition. Ready?

81,999 if you act in the next 24 hours! No need to thank me

LoL...entertaining.

For sure you made your point and people here will go out of their way to listen at show, irrespective of whether we can afford to buy or are even technically intrigued. You have now put yourself on the MAP and curiousity will get the better of us. Just WHAT was Joshua talking about? Lemme hear and report back! LoL

But I must say 120kg?????? Most amps dont weigh that much...ha!

 

[wisnon]

In that case,it is done with feedback-feedforward combination,which is not the case with the NOIS, which has neither.Again....

I have no idea. Anton would not tell me. Many have speculated ...including talk of positive feedback, whatever that is, but nothing concrete.

I dont disrespect your creations, as I know "big iron" sounds good and I am not a fan of high-efficiency anything in audio...

 

[wisnon]

Well since I live in Austin and you live in Dallas why don't you round up the boys and we can meet after CES at Albert's place to put it up against anything anyone wants to bring. Then we can report back here and go back to talking about price

Noice.

Shootout at OK Corrall.

 

[Aries Cerat]

LoL...entertaining.

For sure you made your point and people here will go out of their way to listen at show, irrespective of whether we can afford to buy or are even technically intrigued. You have now put yourself and curiousity will get the better of us. Just WHAT was Joshua talking about? Lemme hear and report back! LoL

But I must say 120kg?????? Most amps dont weigh that much...ha!

On the show we will have the "plain" MK2 model.

 

[Aries Cerat]

I have no idea. Anton would not tell me. Many have speculated ...including talk of positive feedback, whatever that is, but nothing concrete.

I dont disrespect your creations, as I know "big iron" sounds good and I am not a fan of high-efficiency anything in audio...

It is not even apples and oranges Saying we "come late"before even comprehending what the deal is ,is ,maybe not disrespectful,but derogatory.

Maybe it like all keyboard discussions,always gets the wrong message.

Regards
Stavros

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Stavros is a man with a mission and passionate to boot. When you guys are ready we can go over the technical details and help to challenge the status quo of DAC design.

Until then I am going to let him keep building stuff

 

[wisnon]

It is not even apples and oranges Saying we "come late"before even comprehending what the deal is ,is ,maybe not disrespectful,but derogatory.

Maybe it like all keyboard discussions,always gets the wrong message.

Regards
Stavros

It was neither. Nothing but a gentle poke to Joshua, who seems to be a great sport.
It was meant to spur him into dishing out more details.
There is no law that says we cant have fun and have to be reverential. Nobody has said your stuff is junk or does not sound good...far from it.

 

[wisnon]

Stavros is a man with a mission and passionate to boot. When you guys are ready we can go over the technical details and help to challenge the status quo of DAC design.

Until then I am going to let him keep building stuff

Josh, if you enter with a bang...one Dac to rule 'em all. It's encumbent upon you to show the basis of the "reign". Not for us to be ready, but rather for YOU guys to be ready to supply. Strike while the iron is hot. This is your allotted 15 mins of fame...