Not on cholesterol meds? New guidelines may change that

MylesBAstor

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However, estimates are that if the new guidelines are followed at least half of all adult americans will be taking statins. So you either agree that the new guidelines are not so great or you think half of adult americans should be on statins. Which is it? :p

As far as the brother of the young gentleman with the AMI, wouldn't you want to know more before making a recommendation? without knowing anything more I agree he could be offered statins, but I'd feel that way about anyone. What his brother's problem was (there are causes for AMI and stenting other than ASCVD) and what his individual risk profile is (BMI, body habitus, blood pressure, smoking and alcohol history and lipid profile at the least) for starters?

Yes there are many factors at work! Not to mention stress!
 

rockitman

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Please show me where I ever suggested that? (BTW I guess all medical researchers are MDs?). But as I added, it's important that patients play a role in their medical decisions. Nor does that make up for your snide, condescending remark. FYI Pathobiology is the study of disease. Guess what CHD is?

I'm not. The point is, you are not an MD. I trust a Cardiologist (MD) over any kind of PHD. I did not mean to be condescending.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I be believe in recommendations but I also believe in case by case decisions.

All else you ask is beyond personal and I won't discuss it on line.

Rbbrt

Have you ever prescribed something that is off label? Which is it. You can't have it both ways. Or are you now making case by case decisions.
 

rbbert

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Virtually all MD's prescribe off label, as you know, but I'm not sure what that has to do with one's opinion of the new statin guidelines. BTW, the vast majority of off label prescribing is at least evidence based, which is not so true for much of the new statin guidelines.

You know, when the profit per product unit goes down, the only way to keep making the same amount of money is to increase the number of unit sales. Draw your own conclusions.
 

rbbert

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gamve

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+1. Saw a doco on these drugs the other night. Seems the phama companies turn these out by the billions, run their own clinical trials and exclude any data that is not in their favour, and then give enormous bonus payments to prescribing doctors. From the evidence presented in the doco I'm not even sure the medical profession even understands fully the workings of cholesterol in the body system. This does not stop the medical monsters from flogging you drugs that have either no benefit and/or serious side effects. To think they are concerned with your health is just ridiculous, they just want your money. This is easily seen as the pharma companies (each) make larger profits than most of the third world countries entire output combined.
 

rbbert

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...
Just thinking HIPAA...
Ah. I wasn't actually asking for any of that information though, just pointing out that it would be important to know before making any definite recommendations for therapy.

Individualized treatment plans are an excellent idea in general and in particular, but again that concept has little to do with assessing the new cholesterol guidelines, in fact for many sub-groups it seems to be discouraged and/or mentioned only as a CYA move if there is a bad outcome despite following the guidelines.
 

BlueFox

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There are also a lot of people out there who are just not going to work good, healthy (expensive) diets and regular exercise into their lives.

Why is a healthy diet expensive?
 

mep

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Why is a healthy diet expensive?

Ask someone is who is on food stamps. Why do you think you can eat cheaper at Taco Bell than what dog food costs?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Because fresh, unprocessed food has a much shorter shelf life than the sodium and preservative-infested stuff in the freezers and on the canned goods aisle. Because "ground beef,' full of the re-processed bits of meat scooped up off of the slaughter room floor, separated from the fat, disinfected for salmonilla, re-processed into what is lovingly referred to as "pink slime" and put back into the meat as filler....I really shouldn't go on...is cheaper than ground round or ground chuck. Because great bagsfull of frozen potatoes are cheaper than fresh broccoli. Because cans of pre-seasoned, pre-processed greens with enough sodium in them to raise a guru's blood pressure are cheaper than fresh spinach. Because most of the people at the bottom of the food chain, if you'll excuse the pun, are shopping places that don't sell kale and broccoli rob and they don't even know what that stuff is...and we're worried that someone who doesn't really need it might take a statin.

Is it possible to eat healthy on a very tight budget? Yeah, it's probably possible. But the food industry makes it very difficult, while they make it very easy for people to make less wise choices that are easier for the industry to process, package, move and warehouse. Those of us who can take the Range Rover to the Farmer's Market and stop by Whole Foods on the way home? It's a little easeir for us.

Tim
 

jazdoc

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The controversy hit the NY Times today:

Flawed Gauge for Cholesterol Risk Poses a New Challenge for Cardiologists
By GINA KOLATA
This week, cardiologists learned that a new online calculator meant to help them determine a patient’s suitability for cholesterol treatment was flawed, doubling the estimated risk of heart attack or stroke for the average patient. But fixing it would not be easy, because it is based on older data, and heart attack and stroke rates today are much lower than in decades past, meaning that people are at less risk than might be expected from historical extrapolations.

Yet the outdated risk figures are the only ones available for researchers to use as assessment tools, cardiologists say, and that raises real problems for the new risk calculator, which the American Heart Association and the American College of Cardiology posted online last week as part of a radical new set of guidelines for treating high cholesterol. The guidelines, which are supposed to shape the way doctors prescribe cholesterol-lowering statins, recommend looking beyond a patient’s cholesterol readings.

“The disease of atherosclerosis is changing before our eyes,” said Dr. Peter Libby, the chief of cardiovascular medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. The reasons for the changes, he said, are only partly understood.

The problem of using longitudinal health studies from previous decades to assess health risks today arose unexpectedly last weekend at the annual meeting of the American Heart Association. Two Harvard researchers, Dr. Paul M. Ridker and Dr. Nancy Cook, revealed that the new calculator released with fanfare last week exaggerated the true risk of a heart attack or stroke by an average of 100 percent. Moreover, they said, the committee that developed the calculator knew that the online tool was inaccurate yet told doctors to use it in deciding whom to treat.

The data that was used to build the calculator was 20 years old, the researchers said, and a lot has happened since then. Many fewer people have heart attacks and strokes. Those who have them do so at older ages. Women are now nearly as susceptible as men.

But there also is another issue, said Dr. H. Gilbert Welch, a medical professor at Dartmouth. The calculator, like many others used in medicine, is based on a mathematical model that assumes that risk rises in a straight line. As levels of blood pressure rise, for example, the chances of a heart attack or stroke rise in concert, the calculator assumes. In reality, Dr. Welch said, that line is far from straight.

“The model suggests that lowering systolic blood pressure from 130 to 100 is nearly as important as from 180 to 150,” he said. “I doubt there is a cardiologist in the country that believes that.”

When the guidelines were being developed, several outside reviewers, including the two Harvard researchers and Dr. Roger Blumenthal from Johns Hopkins University, pointed out that the tool seemed to exaggerate risk. The calculator, Dr. Blumenthal said, “was clearly not satisfactory.”

In response, he said, the guidelines committee added a tiebreaker for doctors to use with patients whose risk score was equivocal. Those patients could have other tests, such as a heart scan for coronary calcium, which can determine if they have plaque in their arteries, and a blood test for a protein, C.R.P., that is associated with increased risk.

But the heart groups do not plan to change or eliminate the calculator, in part because there is no good alternative. Prescribing statins is often a judgment call, doctors say, except for patients whose chance of a heart attack or stroke is extremely high, like those who have already had a heart attack or who have diabetes.

Previous treatment guidelines, which were released in 2004, also included a risk calculator, but researchers recently discovered that it, too, overestimates risk.

In fact, said Dr. Michael Blaha of Johns Hopkins, the old calculator overestimated risk much greater than the new one, mainly because it was based on data from the 1980s and from the largely white male population of Framingham, Mass.

“The new risk calculator is actually better,” Dr. Blaha said. “People did not appreciate the problems with the Framingham calculator.”

Dr. Blaha and his colleagues discovered the flaws of the calculator based on the Framingham Heart Study a couple of years ago but did not publish their results because they were waiting for the new calculator to appear. They thought any issues with the old calculator would soon be moot.

“It’s a touchy subject,” Dr. Blaha said of the old calculator’s problems.

Many doctors never used the Framingham calculator anyway, said Dr. Benjamin Ansell of the University of California, Los Angeles. Instead, they mostly offered statins to people with very high cholesterol levels, ignoring the fact that those who have lower cholesterol levels but other risk factors, like smoking or high blood pressure, often benefited.

But others used the Framingham calculator to help patients make informed decisions. Dr. Lisa Schwartz and Dr. Steven Woloshin at Dartmouth, for example, said they would show patients their risk percentage and then recalculate what it would be if they were under treatment.

Dr. Ansell said he feared that the problems with the new calculator would make doctors and patients skeptical of the new guidelines in general, even though most of the advice on how to prevent heart attacks and stroke — such as through weight control, diet, exercise and smoking cessation — has nothing to do with the calculator.

“It will be that much more challenging to implement this or subsequent guidelines,” Dr. Ansell said. “It’s a definite setback.”

Dr. Michael Pignone of the University of North Carolina said it was time to take another look at the new calculator. The guideline committee members are experts, he said, but “getting it right is really hard.”

Dr. Welch went further.

“It should be fixed,” he said. “And before we launch it on the public, we should launch it on the skeptical doctors. This matters to millions of people.”
 

mep

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Just look at school lunches in the U.S. There is nothing healthy about them (ketchup counts as a vegetable while you are pouring it onto your french fries), but they are as cheap as the government can buy them or subsidize them. One of these days we won't have a military because all kids will weigh 300lbs by the time they reach the 6th grade and they will all be on disability. By then, you won't be able to call them fat and lazy because that will be some type of hate crime and everyone will be referred to as "socially disadvantaged" or some other nonsensical term and those that dare use other terms will be tarred and feathered except you won't be able to say "tarred and feathered" anymore either because that will be another hate crime and it will double your sentence for saying it.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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The controversy hit the NY Times today:

The problem of using longitudinal health studies from previous decades to assess health risks today arose unexpectedly last weekend at the annual meeting of the American Heart Association. Two Harvard researchers, Dr. Paul M. Ridker and Dr. Nancy Cook, revealed that the new calculator released with fanfare last week exaggerated the true risk of a heart attack or stroke by an average of 100 percent. Moreover, they said, the committee that developed the calculator knew that the online tool was inaccurate yet told doctors to use it in deciding whom to treat.

So who is surprised by this? I smelled a rat last week when this was first announced that new guidelines had been set which were going to dramatically increase the numbers of people who should be taking statins.
 

rockitman

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So who is surprised by this? I smelled a rat last week when this was first announced that new guidelines had been set which were going to dramatically increase the numbers of people who should be taking statins.

sounds like an easier fix than Obamacare.
 

rbbert

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Tell that to Steve :D
 

rbbert

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worthwhile information for those willing to make the effort to read and understand

www.thennt.com
 

MylesBAstor

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rockitman

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