Next upgrade for 803D owner: Ref75 amp or Reference 5SE preamp?

[uncle_dito]

Hi,
I currently have 803D with Audio Research VT100mkIII power amp and Reference 3 preamp. What upgrade would bring me best sound quality improvement for the money?
A) change amp to Ref75/SE? And if so, will it drive my speakers well enough?
B) change preamp to Ref5/SE?

I love the Audio Research sound, so really looking for an upgrade with this brand. Maybe an exception would be the discontinued Marantz MA9S2 300w monoblocks, which I tried at my brother's system with my Ref3 and his 803D2, outstanding combo! But cant find trustable second hand offer in Europe.
As a side note, I currently don't miss more loudness or power, maybe a bit thin on the bass. My listening room is midsize/small, using half of a 5x7m space. Thanks for your advise.

 

[Sharp 1080]

If you can locate one I would say go with the Ref5 SE. I bought a new in box unit in black for a ridiculously low price. It has transformed my system from good to great. Layers of soundstaging, and solid tight bass with definition. I was using a Classe SSP-800 as double duty audio and video playback prior to buying the Ref5 SE.

 

[Kingsrule]

Listen to some different speakers first...much better sounding ones out there then most B&W's

 

[uncle_dito]

If you can locate one I would say go with the Ref5 SE. I bought a new in box unit in black for a ridiculously low price. It has transformed my system from good to great. Layers of soundstaging, and solid tight bass with definition. I was using a Classe SSP-800 as double duty audio and video playback prior to buying the Ref5 SE.

Thanks Sharp, Ref5se seems an outstanding preamp, I just wonder if my VT100 power amp will hold it back...would be great to hear from folks with Ref5 and similar amp VT series or maybe ref110 (though superior to VT100mkIII).

 

[uncle_dito]

Listen to some different speakers first...much better sounding ones out there then most B&W's

Thanks Kingsrule, I was trying to keep variables to a minimum, though you may be right. I have enjoyed B&W sound and have not suspected it to be the weak link. Recently I auditioned WA Sabrinas at a Show, espectacular, but so was the price in line also with upper range B&W.

 

[uncle_dito]

Anyone else out there that could provide some insight? Thanks!

 

[audiohippo]

Anyone else out there that could provide some insight? Thanks!

Having previously owned the B&W 803D1, 805D and 802D2, my recommendation would suggest upgrading the power amplifier. The Ref3 is an excellent preamplifier.

The Ref75/se is no slouch and can drive the even the 800D's to ear splitting levels without breaking a sweat or the cost of sound quality without any problems. It will bring out the best of the 803D's have to offer!

 

[Argonaut]

Do you have any access or ability in measuring the draw on your VT100's ? If the amps are not even close to maxing out driving the 803D's then IMHO the REF5se would an discernible evolution in fidelity over the Ref3, as good as it is.

 

[DonH50]

I have very limited experience with any of these. I do have a friend with 803D's but he is driving them with SS monoblocks. My personal experience with B&W (and most speakers) is that, though tubes sound great in the midrange and treble, bass is not as controlled as with a good SS amplifier.

That said, staying with tubes, I would be looking at the GS or REF 150 or 250 models in ARC's line, or something in that range in another manufacturer's line. A bit better (lower) output impedance, more energy storage in the power supply, etc. I have personally found the larger amps sound better in the bass (REF 750 anyone?) Of course, how far away you sit and how loudly you listen play into the power decision. The 803's are around 90 dB/W/m so not the most efficient, though not bad, and dip down to 3 ohms or so IIRC.

 

[rblnr]

I own both, and think they're both great components. Picking one, I'd go with the Ref75 because I think an amp has generally more influence on the overall sound than the preamp.

 

[stephen_volker]

I am going to shamelessly plug my VAC equipment but alternatively, I've found I got the greatest improvement from upgrading my preamp.

 

[DonH50]

I think amp vs. preamp change is heavily influenced by existing gear, the loudspeaker load, and listening preferences. Probably something the OP is going to have to try and see, preferably with in-home trials. In this case, with those speakers and a similar preamp already in the system, I would go for the amp, but it is a very personal decision and very system- and listener-dependent.

Note a pair of 90 dB/W/m speakers ten feet away from the listener without any sort of reinforcement from the room will hit ~102 dB with 75 W/speaker, fairly loud. They'll achieve 104 dB if the listener is only eight feet away (about my distance), 100 dB if twelve feet away. That would be loud enough for me so the REF75 may be a player even though lower power than the present amplifier, and assuming the bass is OK.

Rambling thoughts - Don

 

[JackD201]

I own both, and think they're both great components. Picking one, I'd go with the Ref75 because I think an amp has generally more influence on the overall sound than the preamp.

I agree. The REF75 is also my favorite ARC amp, maybe ever so I am biased towards the latter.

 

[audiohippo]

I think amp vs. preamp change is heavily influenced by existing gear, the loudspeaker load, and listening preferences. Probably something the OP is going to have to try and see, preferably with in-home trials. In this case, with those speakers and a similar preamp already in the system, I would go for the amp, but it is a very personal decision and very system- and listener-dependent.

Note a pair of 90 dB/W/m speakers ten feet away from the listener without any sort of reinforcement from the room will hit ~102 dB with 75 W/speaker, fairly loud. They'll achieve 104 dB if the listener is only eight feet away (about my distance), 100 dB if twelve feet away. That would be loud enough for me so the REF75 may be a player even though lower power than the present amplifier, and assuming the bass is OK.

Rambling thoughts - Don

Great info here! Ref75se is really good, I am even considering getting one.

 

[uncle_dito]

Guys, many, many thanks to all for your responses, really useful insight! based on DonH50´s comment, it seems that there is no straight right answer, as it depends on room and rest of the system itself. From the posts, there are the following recommendations:

Preamp Ref 5 SE: 3
Amp Ref75: 4
Other: 1 (trying out a different speaker)

I will now try to audition the Ref75SE amp at home, I also feel could make the biggest difference. Now I would be expecting a level change in performance from the old VT100mkIII to invest those k€, not just some subtle improvement

Hope to report as soon as I get my hands on one.

 

[rblnr]

My guess is that the 75 will be a obvious, not subtle, improvement over what you've got.

 

[cjf]

I currently own B&W 803D2's and can confirm that they just keep getting better with more and more clean power, even if you aren't using it all IME. There have been many times when I thought I've heard the best the speakers can offer but with each upgrade of amp the speakers just kept giving more and more. FWIW, I have heard mine with 3 different amplifiers at this point (Quad Amp'd Hypex NC400's, Pass Labs X250 & Merrill Veritas***current).

So I would agree that an amp upgrade would be the better choice in this case given you already have a very nice Pre. If it were me though, I would try to find a REF 150 at bare minimum. If your not opposed to shopping on the used market I don't believe the price difference between the REF75 & REF150 is that big of a gap. If your only looking for new stuff than that certainly changes things a bit in terms of costs.