New Reel-to-Reel Titles - 4-Track?

Foxbat

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Jun 11, 2020
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As they say: "Pay once... cry once..." Yes, recording at 7.5ips will save you a few bucks today, but you will end up with a result that could be better. So sometime later you look at all those good, but not great, recordings, and think: "I should have done 15ips!"

The only reason to do 7.5ips I see is if you don't have 15ips machines and buying one is not in the cards.
 
As they say: "Pay once... cry once..." Yes, recording at 7.5ips will save you a few bucks today, but you will end up with a result that could be better. So sometime later you look at all those good, but not great, recordings, and think: "I should have done 15ips!"

The only reason to do 7.5ips I see is if you don't have 15ips machines and buying one is not in the cards.
You are 100% right on this. The issue is that many people have consumer decks not capable of 15 ips. There are also folks who are not ready or able to invest in a $600+ tape version of a favorite album. The question is, would they / could they purchase a 7.5 ips version of that title for $200?
 

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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You are 100% right on this. The issue is that many people have consumer decks not capable of 15 ips. There are also folks who are not ready or able to invest in a $600+ tape version of a favorite album. The question is, would they / could they purchase a 7.5 ips version of that title for $200?

If you want to offer a product that can be played on the maximum number of machines I think it would be 1/4 track 7.5ips, not 1/2 track.
 

Ampexed

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May 2, 2023
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Interesting. As I understand it, a 4-track deck can play back a 2 track tape but not the other way around? Am I misguided on that?
No that will not work. The right channel track of a 4 track machine will cover only a portion of the right channel track of a 2 track tape, and the right channel will have a severely compromised signal to noise ratio as a result. A 2 track machine cannot play a 4 track tape because of the opposite-direction tracks.
 
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No that will not work. The right channel track of a 4 track machine will cover only a portion of the right channel track of a 2 track tape, and the right channel will have a severely compromised signal to noise ratio as a result. A 2 track machine cannot play a 4 track tape because of the opposite-direction tracks.
Very helpful explanation! Thanks for the insight.
 

adrianywu

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Yes, crosstalk from the reverse tracks was a problem, and plainly audible - no amount of head alignment will cure this. Ampex duplicated their tapes on 3300 series high speed duplicators at 8x normal speed, or 60 ips. The only decent pre-recorded tapes from Ampex were their EX-+ classical releases which were recorded with PPM metering at generally 'hotter' levels on polyester tape. None of these were near the quality of vinyl. I can play any one of the hundreds of these tapes I have to this day - they are all hissy, lack bass, and have crosstalk from the reverse tracks which is plainly audible in quieter passages on classical tapes.

BTW, the EX-+ tapes had a short segment of white noise at the end of side "A" for quality control purposes. You can play it and monitor it on an FFT to see the frequency response of the dub. This was revealed to me by Jay McKnight who was the engineer responsible for the Ampex duplication operation.
I went back and checked out the DSD128 transfers I made of my 4 track tapes. I listened to the quiet intervals between music tracks and cannot detect any crosstalk at all on the random recordings I chose. There is sometimes pre-echo and post-echo, but I cannot hear anything else even with the volume cranked up to painful levels. I must say that I tend to only buy tapes, mostly classical, made from the mid 70s to the early 80s. I think Ampex made a lot of improvement on their tape transfer process along the way.
As for crosstalk on 4 track machines, I recorded a 1kHz signal at -10dB onto the tracks in one direction on brand new 468 tape, flipped it over the played the other two tracks. The right channel measured -58dB and the left -56dB. That means -46dB of track separation, which isn't bad and certainly a lot better than pretty much all phono cartridges.
Of course, one cannot compare these commercial tapes with master tape copies at 2 track/15ips, or even the AP and Tape Project commercial releases. However, most of the 4 track tapes I own were bought at $5 to $30 range, and are much more consistent and in many instances much better than second hand LPs from the same era, most of which have suffered damage over the years. One also has to factor in the cost of the Revox, which cost about $2500 fully refurbished, which is less than what my phono cartridge alone cost. One can of course buy play graded original LPs from people like Tom Port, but would have to pay an arm and a leg. As for streaming, the problem is finding a good transfer. Same with reissue LPs, many of which I find too "hi fi" sounding. Good LP reissues from the likes of AP are not inexpensive either.
 

adrianywu

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As you can see, the compatibility is not good. More than just a level problem. Noise and frequency response between tracks 1 and 3 will be different.

View attachment 127618
Would recordings made from DIN two track heads with 0.75mm separation play better on 4 track heads ? I think most 2 track 15ips releases today have 0.75mm track separation.
 

Ampexed

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May 2, 2023
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I went back and checked out the DSD128 transfers I made of my 4 track tapes. I listened to the quiet intervals between music tracks and cannot detect any crosstalk at all on the random recordings I chose. There is sometimes pre-echo and post-echo, but I cannot hear anything else even with the volume cranked up to painful levels. I must say that I tend to only buy tapes, mostly classical, made from the mid 70s to the early 80s. I think Ampex made a lot of improvement on their tape transfer process along the way.
As for crosstalk on 4 track machines, I recorded a 1kHz signal at -10dB onto the tracks in one direction on brand new 468 tape, flipped it over the played the other two tracks. The right channel measured -58dB and the left -56dB. That means -46dB of track separation, which isn't bad and certainly a lot better than pretty much all phono cartridges.
Of course, one cannot compare these commercial tapes with master tape copies at 2 track/15ips, or even the AP and Tape Project commercial releases. However, most of the 4 track tapes I own were bought at $5 to $30 range, and are much more consistent and in many instances much better than second hand LPs from the same era, most of which have suffered damage over the years. One also has to factor in the cost of the Revox, which cost about $2500 fully refurbished, which is less than what my phono cartridge alone cost. One can of course buy play graded original LPs from people like Tom Port, but would have to pay an arm and a leg. As for streaming, the problem is finding a good transfer. Same with reissue LPs, many of which I find too "hi fi" sounding. Good LP reissues from the likes of AP are not inexpensive either.
The opposite direction crosstalk is most obvious where there is significant low frequency information on those tracks and relative low level signal on the forward tracks. At 1kHz, you're not going to find much crosstalk no matter what. Try 50Hz.....

I use horn speakers which are very revealing which might have something to do with the audibility of this crosstalk. Regardless, I've heard it on every 4 track machine I've ever had (many). I don't take these tapes very seriously these days since there are far better options available now, which wasn't the case when I was originally collecting tapes in the late 60s to the mid 70s in lieu of LPs.

The later Ampex "EX-+" tapes, while they had less noise (hiss), the crosstalk problem if anything was worse because these tapes were recorded significantly hotter (they used PPM-like meters to set levels instead of standard VU meters).
 

astrotoy

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My main experience with opposite direction cross talk has been with some of the Barclay-Crocker 4 track stereo tapes, which are almost all classical recordings. Those which have very loud passages on one side across from very quiet passages on the opposite side can be quite evident when listening to the quiet side. I think is the result of the much greater dynamic range of classical music tapes than pop/rock music tapes. In a few cases Barclay-Crocker decided to only record a piece in one direction, even though it was a 4 track stereo tape, so there would not be opposite direction cross talk.

Larry
 
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astrotoy

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I just found this thread and my two cents worth is that one would need to have very significant volume of production, with the kind of very high speed duplication that Ampex used in the 1960's through early 1980's in producing 4 track stereo tapes to make any business sense. That certainly is the case compared to records which can be duplicated in the thousands in a production run. Even audiophile recordings have runs of 5000 or more pressings, and the mass market vinyl are much higher. The tape duplication facilities would have to be restarted, with the equipment located and restored or rebuilt or major capital invested in building new equipment. Even so, during the heyday of commercial tape sales, the prices of tapes was considerably higher than vinyl. Back in the 1950's when 7.5ips 2 track tapes were the norm, the prices of the tapes were four times as much as the comparable vinyl version, at least by the printed sticker prices on some of my tapes of that era.

I buy a large number of prerecorded tapes (15ips 2 track) and I have gotten to personally know quite a few of the people and their small companies doing the production. They overwhelmingly do this as a labor of love. Sales are typically in the double digit to low triple digits, with most of the companies selling their own recorded material, and very seldom getting the rights to duplicate any really popular titles. Chad Kassem is one of a very few whose other business gives him access to a fair number of mainstream titles. Even so, the number of titles that Chad has released on tape is very small.

Larry
 

Foxbat

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All correct, and this is a very, very typical vicious circle: the prices are high so few people can afford the product... so the production is small... so the prices stay high.

There is only one way to break that cycle and it is by drastically lowering the prices to what the public can and is willing to afford. That means losses in the short term, and apparently no one is willing to take that step. I guess no one believes in the ability of this boutique market to sustain good volume production. Someone has to make the first step, and I can assure you it ain't gonna be the public.

In the meantime the prices keep going up, and I finally stopped even looking in that direction, even though I could afford a few tapes. I suspect I am not alone.
 
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adrianywu

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All correct, and this is a very, very typical vicious circle: the prices are high so few people can afford the product... so the production is small... so the prices stay high.

There is only one way to break that cycle and it is by drastically lowering the prices to what the public can and is willing to afford. That means losses in the short term, and apparently no one is willing to take that step. I guess no one believes in the ability of this boutique market to sustain good volume production. Someone has to make the first step, and I can assure you it ain't gonna be the public.

In the meantime the prices keep going up, and I finally stopped even looking in that direction, even though I could afford a few tapes. I suspect I am not alone.
Indeed. The subscription for the first Tape Project series at $2000 for 10 tapes seems like a dream now......
 

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