New Full-Range Ribbon Speaker Line Debuting in Munich

[dr k]

So did you hear the apogees set up by both rich Murry and Henk? Or are you only referring to the one offs that Graz did with synergy?

Not Henk, but Rich Murry yes. Haven't heard the Synergy. Scintilla is an intriguing design.

 

[vdorta]

Excursion is too limited on panels... I'd still want some dynamic driver bass augmentation./QUOTE]

Clement Perry has listened to them and he surely doesn't agree with you.

 

[dr k]

According to the designer of the Bottocelli, the bass panel membrane has an excursion capability of 2 cm, close to a magnitude greater than any other membrane driver I know of. I'm not sure if capability means it actually does. If true, that is in the realm of dynamic bass drivers. Insane in the membrane.

 

[Folsom]

That's an insane amount. I would strongly question what the performance is like at that excursion.

 

[microstrip]

According to the designer of the Bottocelli, the bass panel membrane has an excursion capability of 2 cm, close to a magnitude greater than any other membrane driver I know of. I'm not sure if capability means it actually does. If true, that is in the realm of dynamic bass drivers. Insane in the membrane.

It is hard to believe - being 8 dB more efficient than competition with such large excursion would imply extremely powerful magnets. Linearity at the edges would become a problem. We really need more details.

 

[dr k]

It is hard to believe - being 8 dB more efficient than competition with such large excursion would imply extremely powerful magnets. Linearity at the edges would become a problem. We really need more details.

All the drivers use neodymium magnets, and each speaker weighs 120 kg (264 lbs). So I can see why he get 94 dB efficiency out of them. I think Graz claims similar efficiency with his tricked out Apogees using neodymium magnets.

Apogee bass is very tight and realistic in the upper and mid bass (one of the best out there to this day) but can lose control in the deep bass (ie, <40 Hz). It still can't compete in dynamics as some of the best cone drivers. I'm assuming it's due mostly to its singled ended design.

According to some who have heard the Bottocelli at shows, it produces some of the most realistic dynamic bass regardless of technology. Even if possible, I think there would be significant audible distortion at 2 cm excursion. I would be happy if it did half that without audible distortion. Designer claims 22 Hz to 40 kHz extension, essentially a true full range panel speaker.

 

[dr k]

That's an insane amount. I would strongly question what the performance is like at that excursion.

I have the same doubt. But if it performs the way it says on paper, it redefines panel speakers. I've waited all my life for a speaker like this.

 

[microstrip]

All the drivers use neodymium magnets, and each speaker weighs 120 kg (264 lbs). So I can see why he get 94 dB efficiency out of them. I think Graz claims similar efficiency with his tricked out Apogees using neodymium magnets.

Apogee bass is very tight and realistic in the upper and mid bass (one of the best out there to this day) but can lose control in the deep bass (ie, <40 Hz). It still can't compete in dynamics as some of the best cone drivers. I'm assuming it's due mostly to its singled ended design.

According to some who have heard the Bottocelli at shows, it produces some of the most realistic dynamic bass regardless of technology. Even if possible, I think there would be significant audible distortion at 2 cm excursion. I would be happy if it did half that without audible distortion. Designer claims 22 Hz to 40 kHz extension, essentially a true full range panel speaker.

Neodymium magnets are not miraculous - if just replacing magnet type all speakers could get an 8 dB improvement in efficiency all old JBLs would have gone in the 100 db/W zone! I think that typically magnetization is up to two times higher than other magnets.

Never saw any real measurement of high efficiency planar speakers - usually they are calculated from measurements made in the far field, and misleadingly corrected as if they were point like speakers. It is why some more manufacturers list them as "equivalent" sensitivity and people later find they need high power amplifiers to drive them.

I think no dipole of such size can have significant 22 Hz bass extension in common rooms due to the out of phase bass cancellation of the back wave. Do you have access to any technical paper on the Bottocelli?

 

[dr k]

Neodymium magnets are not miraculous - if just replacing magnet type all speakers could get an 8 dB improvement in efficiency all old JBLs would have gone in the 100 db/W zone! I think that typically magnetization is up to two times higher than other magnets.

Never saw any real measurement of high efficiency planar speakers - usually they are calculated from measurements made in the far field, and misleadingly corrected as if they were point like speakers. It is why some more manufacturers list them as "equivalent" sensitivity and people later find they need high power amplifiers to drive them.

I think no dipole of such size can have significant 22 Hz bass extension in common rooms due to the out of phase bass cancellation of the back wave. Do you have access to any technical paper on the Bottocelli?

No, I am not aware of any technical paper other than what’s on the Alsyvox website. The designer may be hush about anything unique to his design.

As I have said, I’m have my doubts about the claims too. Everything I know comes from Alsyvox website, talking directly to the designer, what others have said after listening to the speakers, and my very brief experience with them years ago in passing at RMAF. But I was in too much of a hurry to catch a flight to sit down and listen critically. Wasted opportunity. I do remember very open transparent sound, but the music playing was female vocal with accompanying piano.

Getting 22 Hz from a bass panel of that size and excursion is not impossible given each bass panel has more surface area than five 12” woofers per channel. Given large enough room, I think it’s achievable. I have active servo controlled dipole subs using two 12” dynamic drivers per channel, and they’re close to flat at 20 Hz in a 20 x 35 foot room. So real experience tells me this is achievable.

It’s just refreshing to see some with real credibility tackle the weaknesses of dipole panel speakers, especially apogee one of my all time favorite speaker. By credibility, I mean the designer is an aerospace engineer just like the original designer of apogee, Leo Speigel. He’s been working on this design since the early 90’s.

I hope this doesn’t turn out to be another case of overhyped audiophile product that disappoints in the end. $87K is no joke, but that’s not even in the ultra high end of speakers that cost $150k+. Sad is my wallet.

 

[Zero000]

According to the designer of the Bottocelli, the bass panel membrane has an excursion capability of 2 cm, close to a magnitude greater than any other membrane driver I know of. I'm not sure if capability means it actually does. If true, that is in the realm of dynamic bass drivers. Insane in the membrane.

This is incorrect. It has 2cm of space to move within. The membrane itself does not move that much.

 

[Zero000]

No, I am not aware of any technical paper other than what’s on the Alsyvox website. The designer may be hush about anything unique to his design.

As I have said, I’m have my doubts about the claims too. Everything I know comes from Alsyvox website, talking directly to the designer, what others have said after listening to the speakers, and my very brief experience with them years ago in passing at RMAF. But I was in too much of a hurry to catch a flight to sit down and listen critically. Wasted opportunity. I do remember very open transparent sound, but the music playing was female vocal with accompanying piano.

Getting 22 Hz from a bass panel of that size and excursion is not impossible given each bass panel has more surface area than five 12” woofers per channel. Given large enough room, I think it’s achievable. I have active servo controlled dipole subs using two 12” dynamic drivers per channel, and they’re close to flat at 20 Hz in a 20 x 35 foot room. So real experience tells me this is achievable.

It’s just refreshing to see some with real credibility tackle the weaknesses of dipole panel speakers, especially apogee one of my all time favorite speaker. By credibility, I mean the designer is an aerospace engineer just like the original designer of apogee, Leo Speigel. He’s been working on this design since the early 90’s.

I hope this doesn’t turn out to be another case of overhyped audiophile product that disappoints in the end. $87K is no joke, but that’s not even in the ultra high end of speakers that cost $150k+. Sad is my wallet.

5 12 inch woofers? Really? Are you referring to the bass panel in Botticelli? Also, much of the radiating area is obscured in this design.

My Duetta Signature based speakers measure +/- 0DB at 21 Hz in room according to my test mic. Above that, bass output is excessive at the 32Hz point, say.

 

[valkyrie]

I heard the AlsyVox at RMAF - pretty incredible speaker. Deep bass - using their own recordings, solid through out the 30 Hz range. Though I did not hear the low C - 32 Hz - what I did hear was rather incredible. Airy, transparent, fantastic clarity, full range - but rather pricey. The amps they had I think were Class D, which is typically a bit bright and edgy at least compared to linear amps. The amps may have provided some extra bass response or at least given the impression of same. The picture in Post 25 closely resembles the setup at RMAF. The Designer Danielle Coen was present - a pleasant fellow.

Clearly to my ears the most impressive speaker at the show.

As for price? In this era $80,000 is nothing - I heard a Nagra system at RMAF that listed for $527,000. They had the price sheet in the room in case somebody wanted to buy the rig on the spot. Hilarious to my perception. Though it sounded really nice.

 

[bach_king]

I am not completely familiar with the technical aspects of the Alsy Vox speakers. However they were demonstrating the 1.6m model in the Marriott, Munich last year and the sound was nothing short of jaw dropping as was the price (140k Euros was the price of the speakers alone). What was really surprising was that they were using a pure Class B 100wpc amplifier which is fairly unusual in itself given the attitude of the audio fraternity to Class B. The amp looked like a suspended miniature black kettle drum. The music they played was the Reference Recording 'Bells for Stokowski' by the University of Texas Wind Ensemble (RR 104CD) I chatted to the Alsy Vox representative who was looking for a UK distributor and I suspect they may still be looking.

They were in the Marriott again this year but with the same system but the sound was not nearly as good as 2017 in my view. At their price points they will be breathing fairly rarefied air I think.

Below are some pictures I took of the Alsy Vox set up of 2017

 

[microstrip]

(...) Getting 22 Hz from a bass panel of that size and excursion is not impossible given each bass panel has more surface area than five 12” woofers per channel. Given large enough room, I think it’s achievable. I have active servo controlled dipole subs using two 12” dynamic drivers per channel, and they’re close to flat at 20 Hz in a 20 x 35 foot room. So real experience tells me this is achievable. (...) .

The question is just that these panels are dipoles and as such need 6 dB/oct dipole slope correction, something that is feasible in an active servo controlled system, although it limits maximum loudness. I have built such dipole subwoofer long ago, using the famous 24" Hartley speaker - the main speakers were Quad ESL, dynamic range was not a problem! I can not see how this can be passively implemented is such a limited area panel, 22 Hz is really low.

 

[dr k]

This is incorrect. It has 2cm of space to move within. The membrane itself does not move that much.

Yes, there is 2 cm space to move in, but how do you know the membrane can’t move close to that? Do you have inside knowledge we don’t? Why would a designer put that much space if the membrane only moves a small fraction? It would be better to have smaller space to improve linearity, no?

 

[spiritofmusic]

I thought the definition of a great driver was one you hardly perceived movement in, even when piling out the dB and plumbing the depths.

E.g. Rockport Arrakis woofers don't even break sweat at 20Hz.

Is it different w ribbons? Are they meant to have a lot of excursion?

 

[dr k]

5 12 inch woofers? Really? Are you referring to the bass panel in Botticelli? Also, much of the radiating area is obscured in this design.

My Duetta Signature based speakers measure +/- 0DB at 21 Hz in room according to my test mic. Above that, bass output is excessive at the 32Hz point, say.

Yea, I had a brain fart on the 5 12 inch woofers. I was thinking more like two 12 inch woofers similar to my active dipole dynamic subwoofers. According to specs, the Botticelli bass panel area is 4544 cm2 or 705 square inches which is similar to two 12 inch subwoofers...I’ve found no 12 inch cone subwoofer actually has effective radiating area as indicated by the published radius. But it is a push pull design using much more effient magnets, unlike the single ended Duetta bass panel which I found its bass to become soft below 40 Hz. I’m getting a little resentment vibe from you. Why? I have no personal stake in the Botticelli or the Apogee because I own neither currently. Just both intrigued and skeptical at the design.

 

[spiritofmusic]

dr k, I have no vested interest, but if yr Alsyvox take 211's Duettas performance and truly build upon it, I am extremely envious.

His modded Duettas put a big smile on my face when I visited him to listen to them.

 

[dr k]

I thought the definition of a great driver was one you hardly perceived movement in, even when piling out the dB and plumbing the depths.

E.g. Rockport Arrakis woofers don't even break sweat at 20Hz.

Is it different w ribbons? Are they meant to have a lot of excursion?

I don’t necessarily agree with your first statement. If you have a large area, the driver doesn’t need to move as much to produce low bass as a smaller driver. Panel bass drivers (Apogee and Magnepan planar magnetic bass driver is not a true ribbon driver like their tweeter which is unsuitable for bass application) can’t have high excursion like a dynamic driver due its design. And distortion goes up as excursion increases for both designs but is worse for panel drivers. Arrakis has huge woofers with presumably large excursion capability with not much distortion.

 

[dr k]

dr k, I have no vested interest, but if yr Alsyvox take 211's Duettas performance and truly build upon it, I am extremely envious.

His modded Duettas put a big smile on my face when I visited him to listen to them.

No worries. I didn’t imply you had any vested interest. Whose modded Duettas are you referring to?