New and improved or marketing to generate revenue

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,181
691
1,200
Alto, NM
I was thinking about this when I recently posted regarding an "SE" version of a well regarded, high priced product that was only released within the past two to three years. My question was "is there new hardware or technology that did not exist when that product was initially released?"

I recognize that some technology (computer processors / chips) is the best example I can conger at this time) have a relatively short tech, shelf life span. But I do wonder about hi end manufacturers that seem to introduce new products or mods to recently introduced products and whether this phenomena is a verifiable / justifiable (for the additional cost) sonic advancement or purely done for marketing purposes to increase that company's bottom line.

I don't want to point fingers or make false accusations of any manufacturer since I cannot provide any personal experiences that would validate the argument one way or the other. Having said that, it seems to me that this practice is somewhat prevalent in this very small niche market. I do recognize the need to stay relevant and providing new / improved products but is that really true from a performance / value perspective?
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,601
11,693
4,410
i think generally you will find across all types of manufactured consumer goods that new product updates are connected to the organization overhead size. the bigger the design, manufacturing, and distribution involved, the greater the need to continually fuel it's appetite for revenue. drive more sales.

applied to the High End Audio business, we especially see that 'brick and mortar' product brands will have to train dealers and customers to expect new versions. the whole chain needs that to survive. there are never enough new customers for brands and dealers to keep the fires burning.

step down into less robust efforts, maybe direct sellers, or small dealer networks where the sellers have low overhead as well as the manufacturer. now they can survive without the higher cash flow and be ok through droughts in product introductions.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
As I have often bought goods in the used market I largely prefer manufacturers that introduce mk2, mk3, II, III or SE versions when they carry modifications, even small ones, in their products. This way we can know what we are getting when we face an used product. Some manufacturers update regularly their products with small changes, but do not modify their references. This creates cheating and doubt in the market.

As SE is often used by Audio Research, I will give my thoughts on this brand. Up to know, all the SE versions carried significant sound or cosmetic differences, and were clealry explained by the manufacturer. The value and need of the upgrade depends on the particular systems and preferences of users - for example, I did not feel tempted to move from the REF Anniversary preamplifier to the REF10 (that IMHO is just a REF40 mk2) . Going in the past, the 3 versions of the REF600 amplifiers (original, mk2 and mk3) were very different amplifiers. The three LS5 versions (also original, mk2 and mk3) preamplfiers had different topologies and sounded very different.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,865
6,936
1,400
the Upper Midwest
It seems that AR releases "new / improved" models on a somewhat frequent basis but maybe this is typical for the industry. Think I'll start a new thread on this topic. Having said that and will all due respect to AR fans, does the new and improved Ref 6SE contain tech and / or hardware that was not available when the Ref 6 was initially released? I assume better caps and better wire were available and were not used.

I do wonder about hi end manufacturers that seem to introduce new products or mods to recently introduced products and whether this phenomena is a verifiable / justifiable (for the additional cost) sonic advancement or purely done for marketing purposes to increase that company's bottom line.

I thought this was a somewhat troubling post. It's not quite clear what is your point.

Do we see incremental changes in audio gear that come with their own model designation? From some manufacturers, of course we do.

Is it possible that manufacturer's plan these incremental changes, revised model releases and upgrade offers in advance? Of course they do.

Do manufacturers try to make money from what they sell? Yes, of course. Some do it better than others.

Do people buy these incremental upgrades or model revisions? They certainly seem to, at least in the case of Audio Research products.

I don't want to point fingers or make false accusations of any manufacturer since I cannot provide any personal experiences that would validate the argument one way or the other.

What is the argument? What would be an accusation - that some manufacturers have plans to charge money for incremental upgrades?

What should be different?
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,319
1,429
1,820
Manila, Philippines
Like was said before, it is pretty much the norm for manufacturers in any industry to come out with both updated versions as well as special or limited editions. Audio is far behind the sporting goods industry for example.

Typically updates are designated with the usual Mk2, .2, SE, etc. While it does keep awareness up by keeping products relevant, as micro says, it also helps the customer know exactly what he is getting parts wise and this also helps the manufacturer keep parts inventory and servicing more efficient. When the manufacturer deems the product to be changed in a more fundamental manner that is when we typically get a whole new designation.

There are many cases where products are tiered and offered at the same time. Take for example Aesthetix. You can have the original version or the Eclipses. They are VERY different on the insides and you get nimbus feet as a bonus. I actually like this a lot. It's a great way to upgrade without spending a ton of money AND get it done with hardly any down time if you have a local Aesthetix dealer in the area.

For the most part, I think the practice is okay. Just like a school term paper, it can always be better but submission deadlines are well, deadlines. Releases within less than two years is what I find suspect as many do. It irks customers and that surely doesn't help the manufacturer. It surely implies that maybe too little time was allotted for development or even worse, that the customer is being used as their test market as they find their way or their identity for that matter. Maybe it is more forgivable for new companies or boutique makers but I don't think really short intervals is something we should see from those with global distribution.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tima

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,181
691
1,200
Alto, NM
tima,

Sorry you were troubled by my post. I raise issues that I think are relevant to forum members. I don't argue, I discuss. I try to learn different perspectives from other people. If you are looking for an argument, don't expect one from me.
 

Bobvin

VIP/Donor
Jun 7, 2014
1,719
3,076
665
Portland
www.purewatersystems.com
In a more mature or larger company, product development is targeted and based on historical sales decline curves. Along the R&D path there comes a point where you have to put a line down and declare we go to market with the parts currently under test that provide the agreed upon improvements. This of course requires contracts to secure the required parts, or knowing in-house capacity to produce said parts. Now if along the way to a new model new parts are identified to provide improvements that can shoe-horn into old design, allow development of new model to be stretched out longer, and provide an incremental revenue boost I understand making the parts available as an SE version.

I seem to recall Ref5 was followed by SE version relatively quickly, but Ref6 was much longer to market. In a world of iPhone and new car releases annually, should we be surprised by incremental upgrades? If there is enough sonic improvement, some folks will jump, others will wait for the next full model.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,865
6,936
1,400
the Upper Midwest
tima,

Sorry you were troubled by my post. I raise issues that I think are relevant to forum members. I don't argue, I discuss. I try to learn different perspectives from other people. If you are looking for an argument, don't expect one from me.

I'm not troubled, your message is because it is unclear what you are trying to say. You don't discuss, you insinuate. What is it about the fact of incremental changes that makes you think they are relevant to discuss?

don't want to point fingers or make false accusations of any manufacturer...

About what? What are you talking about?
 

MJB

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2013
136
29
333
I trully appreciate the ability to upgrade my gear (assuming the upgrade provides sonic improvement) without having to do a full replacement; specially, if the upgrades are available for a reasonable price.

I have taken advantage of ARC, D’Agostino, Shunyata and VPI upgrade programs to improve my system. I have also heard the CH Precision upgrades. All reasonably priced (some more than others) and bring significant sonic improvements without having to do a full replacement. The ability to enjoy such programs is a win-win for both the customer and the manufacturer.

In contrast, many of us would be upset if there was no avenue to do incremental updates to our very expensive audio gear.

Lastly, all products have a lifecycle. At some point, manufacturers will drop models and add new ones. It’s a business!
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,181
691
1,200
Alto, NM
What is it about the fact of incremental changes that makes you think they are relevant to discuss?
About what? What are you talking about?

Whether or not the technology, hardware or expertise existed at the time of the initial release of the product and for some reason, was not included in the original debut of that product?

The relevancy issue relates to customer fairness, product value and reliability and whether the product was released prematurely. If it was released prematurely, one hopes that the manufacturer would provide an upgrade path at minimal or no cost to the customer.

The reason(s) could be it was too expensive to implement to hit the desired price / point target, certain hardware was not available or was in the testing phase, or new tech was discovered, developed or implemented after the product was released that significantly improved SQ. There are probably other pertinent reasons that I'm not aware of.

One personal experience I had in the distant past was with a top of the line Tandberg cassette deck. Within the first year, I had to send back three times to be serviced because the tape transport kept failing. I eventually got rid of the product at a significant loss.

Hope that helps.
 
Last edited:

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,865
6,936
1,400
the Upper Midwest
Whether or not the technology, hardware or expertise existed at the time of the initial release of the product and for some reason, was not included in the original debut of that product?

The relevancy issue relates to customer fairness, product value and reliability and whether the product was released prematurely. If it was released prematurely, one hopes that the manufacturer would provide an upgrade path at minimal or no cost to the customer.

The reason(s) could be it was too expensive to implement to hit the desired price / point target, certain hardware was not available or was in the testing phase, or new tech was discovered, developed or implemented after the product was released that significantly improved SQ. There are probably other pertinent reasons that I'm not aware of.

One personal experience I had in the distant past was with a top of the line Tandberg cassette deck. Within the first year, I had to send back three times to be serviced because the tape transport kept failing. I eventually got rid of the product at a significant loss.

Hope that helps.

Yes, a much clearer explanation of what you're after.

I think we need to be careful with hindsight and passing judgement. They could have ... it should have... I would have, etc.

As reflected by this forum the market is in constant churn. We know this. You seemed to focus on Audio Research - the briefest of looks at their product history show they release lot's of products in various lines and price tiers. And people buy them. From ARC's perspective,this trickles down older models to those who maybe could not afford them when new and thus introduces their products to new audiencem. As Jack suggests, it also keeps their brand before the public while depicting themselves as 'moving forward' making progress and being innovative. It keeps them in business and sustains their employess. That's a model that works for many of the higher volume, higher capitalized companies.

Sometimes technology used in one model or type is later used in a different model or type - trickle down. Rather than introduce a wholesale change across the board to all lines, a company will see how it plays out over time before making a larger commitment, for example to a parts order. That's rational. Which model gets the change first may make it seem, in hindsight, like it could have been introduced earlier in other models. If a change is made quickly, then it can seem like the manufacturer was holding back - in hindsight.

Change introduction usually gets staggered. Each release, new model or revision or upgrade requires planning, new marketing materials, new dealer training, maybe new packaging. That's sometimes more than a small shop can handle, and we tend not to see the same frequency of change from smaller manufacturers. Though that's not universal. Occasionally a smaller manufacturer with weak or poor marketing may think a new model is the only way they can stay in the public eye. I see that more with cable makers.

Should manufacturer's hold back a release to possibly include some new feature, waiting for the completion of testing, or parts arrival, etc? Or should they go ahead and introduce revisions later on? In hindsight, from the customer's perspective. "I would not have bought model 6 if I'd known that two years later they would introduce model 6a." Yeah, I read those sort of comments. But again, in many cases We Know there will be new models, revisions and upgrades coming down the pike.

Do some manufacturers plan out revisions and upgrades? Yes of course they do. Are there times when they have everything now that they plan for a later upgrade. Yes. If that 'business model' works for them, that's good imo. I'd rather have more audio manufacturers - successful manufacturers - than fewer. Is an ideal world one where we make a single purchase and its for life? I actually think you can come close to doing that today though it can be expensive and you need to be sure of your choice.

Each of us picks a spot in time to make a purchase. Do the increments between changes sometimes seem too short - well they do to the fellow who bought six months before the next revision. He may think it's 'unfair.' Is it? Personally, though we may recognize his feeling, I don't think that question makes sense. Did he make a 'bad choice' - apparently not to him at the time he made his purchase - only in hindsight might he think that. What are you going to do? Well, we always have the option not to buy. Some people say, "I only buy every other generation."

Then there's the issue of slip-streaming - beyond scope here. Micro can write about that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bobvin

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,181
691
1,200
Alto, NM
Thank you tima. That helps a lot. FWIW, I have no axe to grind with AR but a previous AR thread piqued my curiosity to pose the question.
 
Last edited:

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing