Nat Audio - giant killers?

[khonfused]

Is it true that there are different versions of the symmetrical available? I am aware there is the new symmetrical, but are there also different variations of the new symmetrical?
I cannot find any information on that on the NAT website.

I was told so by a kind of dubious source today and would like to find out more about it.

Cheers
khonfused

 

[bonzo75]

Don't think so, there was the Symmetrical, Magnetic, and Magnetostat and Magnetostat SE. Utopia is the discontinued model - but you can call him directly

 

[khonfused]

Okay,

I found a hint.

From the positive feedback review:

"I have to mention the nifty volume control. Whether done via the remote or the knob on the front of the chassis, volume attenuation works by a network of relays. Not digital, or motorized, but relays, the kind that make a clicking noise loud enough to be heard from the listening seat, activating precision matched resistors. I understand that volume attenuation is "dirty," a known source of noise pollution. NAT must have determined the effectiveness of this solution, and therefore deemed it worth the extra expense and disturbance. Still, the clicking takes some getting used to. (BTW, a factory upgrade is available to install silent relays.)"

Best I get in touch with NAT in Serbia to find out about all possible upgrade options.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Khonfused, I have the discontinued Utopia SE linestage, demoed it v. the Symmetrical. Both "suffer" from clicking on going up and down w/volume. Takes a little getting used to, but now not an issue.
FWIW, I chose the Utopia, just a tad more dynamic in my system, the Symmetrical a little soft in comparison. The UK distributor is gaga over the top of the line Magnetostat, feeling it kicks both these models into base.

 

[khonfused]

The clicking noise is no deal breaker for me at all, I wouldn't even be bothered by it. Having owned a audio gd master1 preamp for a while I am used to the clicking.
I am sure the totl magnetostat is something else, just way outside my budget (didn't win the lottery again this weekend).

I am looking for second hand if possible and the utopia is a candidate too, though the symmetrical looks better. Wondering what the factory outlet or second hand prices really are.
There is a plasma (no R) for sale and after it received 1000 clicks within a few hours the seller/dealer upped the price from 1800,-€ to 1950,-€. Go figure.

The hunt is on.
Cheers

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bonzo75 may be able to help w/prices, he seems to have his finger on the pulse re such things.

 

[bonzo75]

The clicking noise is no deal breaker for me at all, I wouldn't even be bothered by it. Having owned a audio gd master1 preamp for a while I am used to the clicking.
I am sure the totl magnetostat is something else, just way outside my budget (didn't win the lottery again this weekend).

I am looking for second hand if possible and the utopia is a candidate too, though the symmetrical looks better. Wondering what the factory outlet or second hand prices really are.
There is a plasma (no R) for sale and after it received 1000 clicks within a few hours the seller/dealer upped the price from 1800,-€ to 1950,-€. Go figure.

The hunt is on.
Cheers

Utopia is SE, Symmetrical if you want balanced. You will find factory direct is around 40% of the rrp, which is actually pretty cheap.

If you get the Magnetostat SE you will probably have the best pre in the world for a relatively cheap price, compared to uber expensive Kondos etc. The only reason I am not looking at that immediately is because I am not sure if I will stay SE with my Lampizator dac or go balanced with it, and then I could put it directly into the power amp. It would give me a pretty decent sound, deprioritising an external pre, no matter how good. But when I do get that pre, based on current data, it will have to be the Magnetostat SE

 

[ddk]

Just curious...what do you think of the big Apogee Grands? I have not come across too many people who've ever heard one. I have long kept in the back of my mind the big Apogee Full ranges updated by True Sound Works, maybe/maybe not with a duo of high quality subs if necessary.

I had the Apogee Grands Lloyd, they were terrible speakers! It was unfortunate because I was an Apogee groupie and the Grand was supposed to be my last speaker. The rosewood pair that I had was to die for, just gorgeous! Unfortunately the sound didn't match the looks. The main panels are simply too power hungry and that Krell sub they stuck under it was a POS, no way to make it match the panels. I had them tri-amped with 3 pairs of monster Krell Audio Standards, one of the worst amplifiers I ever owned, and they use to break down almost weekly. On the other hand I loved my Divas, had them for nearly 10 years and they survived many other higher end speakers that passed through my room , until my current horns. I know the Full Range model too, also a very fine speakers, no idea about the modded ones.
david

 

[morricab]

I had the Apogee Grands Lloyd, they were terrible speakers! It was unfortunate because I was an Apogee groupie and the Grand was supposed to be my last speaker. The rosewood pair that I had was to die for, just gorgeous! Unfortunately the sound didn't match the looks. The main panels are simply too power hungry and that Krell sub they stuck under it was a POS, no way to make it match the panels. I had them tri-amped with 3 pairs of monster Krell Audio Standards, one of the worst amplifiers I ever owned, and they use to break down almost weekly. On the other hand I loved my Divas, had them for nearly 10 years and they survived many other higher end speakers that passed through my room , until my current horns. I know the Full Range model too, also a very fine speakers, no idea about the modded ones.
david

I had a friend here in Europe with a pair of Grands and the best we ever got them to sound was running them passive with a Diva crossover and an Audio Research EC-2 active crossover for the subs and powering the subs with a Sphinx Project 14 amplifier and power the main panels with another Sphinx Project 14 amplifier.

Once my friend got all the active electronics working IMO the sound was significantly worse and I blame all the Apogee built-in active crossover and krell amps for the sub.

The Diva is a great sounding speaker...one of the best ever.

 

[ddk]

I had a friend here in Europe with a pair of Grands and the best we ever got them to sound was running them passive with a Diva crossover and an Audio Research EC-2 active crossover for the subs and powering the subs with a Sphinx Project 14 amplifier and power the main panels with another Sphinx Project 14 amplifier.

Once my friend got all the active electronics working IMO the sound was significantly worse and I blame all the Apogee built-in active crossover and krell amps for the sub.

The Diva is a great sounding speaker...one of the best ever.

I don't know of any owner who wasn't absolutely in love with their Diva. I would still have mine too if it wasn't destroyed in the move.

david

 

[Henry van der Burgh]

Also from NAT Symbiosis SE to KR Audio VA 350i

Interesting, they also have KR.

No doubt NAT does dynamics, separation, tone etc. well. They are very good amps. I have simply found that KR exceeds NATs ultimate performance envelope in basically all the areas you described and with all kinds of music. It is not worlds different but I find it to be significant. I have directly compared the KR VA350i to the NAT SE2SE, Symbiosis and Single. The VA350i is priced comparably to the NATs.

It's a small world. I also left my Nat Symbiosis SE integrated for a KR Audio VA350i. Mine NAT was somewhat newer with the flat alumium coolers. The KR Audio took some time to be warmed up/burned in, but indeed I have the same experience. The NAT Symbiosis is superb to a lot of amplifiers, but I immediately noticed it was missing something. At that time I did not know if it was my amplifier or somewhere else in my chain. Also noteworthy is that since I own my Acoustic Energy AE3 MKII floorstandig reference monitors, I Always had some difficulty with the highs, sounding a bit sharp.

After my KR Audia was warmed up I noticed that the sharpness was gone, while at the same time I heard very pleasant high notes, that no other combo could deliver. It was delicate, yet highly informative. No cutting of on high frequencies now. I have to admit that I also changed my cd player with a Yamaha CD-S 3000 the same time with the purchase of the KR Audio.

The bass also is something amazing. It has control over the bass area that not many other solid state amplifiers can and I myself never heard before. It is controlled, fierce and nowhere near "boomy".

But then the mids. Owwh wow. They are now really in the room very lifelike. Overall the music is also more balanced, making the sound of every note more of one palet, instead of good bass/lesser highs, or good mids, but slow bass per example. This KR really does everything right at it's best.

It is my first time I own a KR Audio, after I heard a few notes of the Kronzilla a long time ago. Then I could not afford the Kronzilla, so did not mind to much about KR Audio. Now I still can't afford the Kronzilla, but I doubt if I ever will turn back on the KR Audio. My next amp a Kronzilla?

I also like the tubes that KR Audio make themselves. It is not a "wired" tube, but a Ribbon tube. It seems more reliable and this is een in the warranty on the KR tubes. I think and hope the KR Audio outperforms the NAT as much in sonic capabilities as well in durability. For now I am as happy as I can be (and more happy then I thought I could be) with this KR Audio VA 350i.

Greetings,

Henry van der Burgh

 

[bonzo75]

I love KR, but to have a fair comparison you need to compare the transmitter lower output setting with Kronzilla. The symbiosis is not one of his main products.

 

[morricab]

It's a small world. I also left my Nat Symbiosis SE integrated for a KR Audio VA350i. Mine NAT was somewhat newer with the flat alumium coolers. The KR Audio took some time to be warmed up/burned in, but indeed I have the same experience. The NAT Symbiosis is superb to a lot of amplifiers, but I immediately noticed it was missing something. At that time I did not know if it was my amplifier or somewhere else in my chain. Also noteworthy is that since I own my Acoustic Energy AE3 MKII floorstandig reference monitors, I Always had some difficulty with the highs, sounding a bit sharp.

After my KR Audia was warmed up I noticed that the sharpness was gone, while at the same time I heard very pleasant high notes, that no other combo could deliver. It was delicate, yet highly informative. No cutting of on high frequencies now. I have to admit that I also changed my cd player with a Yamaha CD-S 3000 the same time with the purchase of the KR Audio.

The bass also is something amazing. It has control over the bass area that not many other solid state amplifiers can and I myself never heard before. It is controlled, fierce and nowhere near "boomy".

But then the mids. Owwh wow. They are now really in the room very lifelike. Overall the music is also more balanced, making the sound of every note more of one palet, instead of good bass/lesser highs, or good mids, but slow bass per example. This KR really does everything right at it's best.

It is my first time I own a KR Audio, after I heard a few notes of the Kronzilla a long time ago. Then I could not afford the Kronzilla, so did not mind to much about KR Audio. Now I still can't afford the Kronzilla, but I doubt if I ever will turn back on the KR Audio. My next amp a Kronzilla?

I also like the tubes that KR Audio make themselves. It is not a "wired" tube, but a Ribbon tube. It seems more reliable and this is een in the warranty on the KR tubes. I think and hope the KR Audio outperforms the NAT as much in sonic capabilities as well in durability. For now I am as happy as I can be (and more happy then I thought I could be) with this KR Audio VA 350i.

Greetings,

Henry van der Burgh

Did you notice with your Symbiosis that after about 2 hours of playing music it got significantly purer sounding and nearly holographic in soundstage/imaging? Mine would also sometimes make this sort of "click" and then the sound would improve rather substantially...I always thought that it had something to do with adaptive bias but I could never be sure...just sure the sound improved to nearly top class. My frustration is that most of the time the sound was merely very good but bettered by good tube output SETs. In the rare times I listened long enough to get the amp into the "zone" it was about as good as anything I have heard. But this was too rare and turned me off to listening to it because I knew it could sound so much better sometimes than it usually sounded...which was missing something.

The KR Audio amps still have the best SET bass I have heard and it is even better than a lot of SS amps...control but with much more texture and tonal complexity. I have heard some SETs with a more vivid midrange but I think the KR is right in the mix in this regard but with less overall coloration.

The all tube NATs are quite good and apparently the quality is much improved but I cannot confirm this. I still use some NAT in my system, I have a NAT Plasma preamp, which is excellent tonally and dynamically it is a beast.

I am now reviewing the Aries Cerat Diana and this might be the first SET that out dynamics a KR.

 

[morricab]

I love KR, but to have a fair comparison you need to compare the transmitter lower output setting with Kronzilla. The symbiosis is not one of his main products.

Perhaps. I don't know about the power setting though but it should be whichever one is better sounding. I think Flo found the lower power sounded better but I can't remember now.

 

[bonzo75]

Perhaps. I don't know about the power setting though but it should be whichever one is better sounding. I think Flo found the lower power sounded better but I can't remember now.

Yes, I was saying that so that you compare more of KR level power to NAT level power, instead of putting in 120w, just in case the speaker is sensitive to more power.

 

[bonzo75]

When you directly compared KR to NAT, did you find that KR had more air?

 

[Henry van der Burgh]

NAT Symbiosis and KR Audio

Did you notice with your Symbiosis that after about 2 hours of playing music it got significantly purer sounding and nearly holographic in soundstage/imaging? Mine would also sometimes make this sort of "click" and then the sound would improve rather substantially...I always thought that it had something to do with adaptive bias but I could never be sure...just sure the sound improved to nearly top class. My frustration is that most of the time the sound was merely very good but bettered by good tube output SETs. In the rare times I listened long enough to get the amp into the "zone" it was about as good as anything I have heard. But this was too rare and turned me off to listening to it because I knew it could sound so much better sometimes than it usually sounded...which was missing something.

The KR Audio amps still have the best SET bass I have heard and it is even better than a lot of SS amps...control but with much more texture and tonal complexity. I have heard some SETs with a more vivid midrange but I think the KR is right in the mix in this regard but with less overall coloration.

The all tube NATs are quite good and apparently the quality is much improved but I cannot confirm this. I still use some NAT in my system, I have a NAT Plasma preamp, which is excellent tonally and dynamically it is a beast.

I am now reviewing the Aries Cerat Diana and this might be the first SET that out dynamics a KR.

Hi Morricab,

Indeed the sound of the Symbiosis did much approve after somewhat 1 or 2 ours. Usually I did put on a cd or 2 and left it playing before I went to listening. I played with NOS Siemens ECC's, they were very dynamic and holographic indeed. The click I did not hear, but I had mine repaired 2 times because of distortion. Because it was a fairly new amplifier I traded it the 2nd time for the KR Audio.

With the KR Audio I do have some small click sound now and then, but not to bottering. The sound of the KR Audio is simpy more relaxed, but not in spite of dynamics. Bass is controlled, but lively. Well everything seems just right and natural.

Upon closer inspection I saw that my KR100 tubes are somewhat different in size. Maybe 1 integrated and 1 power tube? I have to contact KR Audio about this. I bought mine as demo from a High End shop that does not sell KR Audio regularly. So maybe they put in a wrong tube? Serials are also not matching...

Just wondering how the Aries compare in sonics and price and did you ever hear a Kronzilla?

By the way a friend of mine did have the Plasma and does now own the Utopia pre. I felt the Plasma was better on dynamics and more lively. He did prefer the Utopia because of the more relaxed sound.

Best soundings to you,

Henry

 

[bonzo75]

Does the Plasma have low impedance, high current? Can it drive SS amps?

 

[morricab]

Does the Plasma have low impedance, high current? Can it drive SS amps?

The version I have has 6 PCC88 tubes per channel. I think they are all in parallel. Supposedly 100 ohm output impedance. Should be high current too as it has a robust and tube regulated power supply. Lots of SS regulators too presumably for the filament supplies.

It drives the Diana (tried as an experiment) well and Diana has a 10kohm input impedance.

 

[Rob181]

The version I have has 6 PCC88 tubes per channel. I think they are all in parallel. Supposedly 100 ohm output impedance. Should be high current too as it has a robust and tube regulated power supply. Lots of SS regulators too presumably for the filament supplies.

It drives the Diana (tried as an experiment) well and Diana has a 10kohm input impedance.

Please tell me of your experience with the the Diana...this is an amp that I do lust after...but cannot afford.

Thanks

Rob