Nat Audio - giant killers?

[spiritofmusic]

The experts LOL have spoken, now it's over to Gary...

 

[microstrip]

When I see a GM100 tube or similar I almost immediately associate it with something like 2kV at around 500 mA ... One should be careful to check if he has access to service facilities for this kind of amplifiers locally. In the few times I had trouble I have always diagnosed and serviced myself my own tube electronics - but I would be afraid just of opening such amplifier with the power cable connected!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh Micro, it TRULY is humungous
Ron will prove his credentials as fearless leader if he acquires the Magmas
There certainly is a dire shortage of fearless leaders in the Western world at present

 

[microstrip]

Oh Micro, it TRULY is humungous
Ron will prove his credentials as fearless leader if he acquires the Magmas
(...)

Surely - these tubes are much bigger than suggested in the photos. I also love the aspect of the 833. Anyone owning an amplifier with either the GM100 or the 833 should be considered a fearless leader.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Micro, the GM100s in the OLD Magmas were scary enough
These NEW ones are positively petrifying
I believe they may span 18" tall
They need a special valve filament holder to fix the tube into the holder
This entails some kind of threading of the valve filaments
Beyond that, I dare not ask

Seriously though, if they can do small scale intimate, and big, dynamic, wide and deep, they may be the hidden gem in the world of tube amps

 

[gareneau]

Marc, it's your description of the sound that started all this. You're responsible...

 

[gareneau]

Brad, thank you for this. I read your posts very carefully and only wish I could get you, Marc and Bonzo75 in the same room together. I do think my European friends are a bit more sophisticated when it comes to sound.

 

[gareneau]

Brad, thank you for this. I read your posts very carefully and only wish I could get you, Marc and Bonzo75 in the same room together. I do think my European friends are a bit more sophisticated when it comes to sound.

Brad, I was referring to your extended reply earlier about preamps that might play well with the Centaur Majors. I should have "replied with quote". May I put in a word of regard for Christiaan Punter of Hi-Fi Advice from the Netherlands. He is a huge Apogee and Rowland advocate and I read his reviews closely.

 

[bonzo75]

You and Bonzo were kind of talking past each other because he was mostly (and incorrectly, IMHO) saying that big SETs from NAT don't work well with Apogees and you were asking about their preamps.

I don't know if your budget extends to their current, significantly more expensive, models but the Symmetrical is a good sounding preamp, rich and big boned but still with very good resolution. The word on the street though is that the Plasma was better, specifically the older Plasma before they switched to 6N30P tubes. I have one of these older Plasmas and it has 6 x PCC88 per channel! I think they are all in parallel to act like a single big triode. It is also somewhat rich, but not overly so and has dynamics that are thrilling. Transparency and imaging/soundstaging are also superb. It does need about 45 minutes of warmup time to really open up but that is not so unusual in the high end world. I doubt that there is a better preamp on the market for the price. When you look inside you see the quality: Truly dual mono with big power transformers, large caps, tube rectified and tube regulated and lots of SS regulators for those filaments. Well designed and executed I would say.

i haven't heard the latest and greatest NAT preamps but they might be killer but also the price is no longer the bargain they once were.

As for amps, if you are curious about SET amps then you should give NAT a try on your Apogees...I think it could work very well despite the advice Bonzo has given you...I know it sounds quite good in fact. Be aware though that the new SE2SE is using GM70 tubes now and not 211s. Sonically it will be different than Marc is describing.

I have heard the exact amps Marc has (2 different versions in fact) as well two different SE1s and the mighty SE3 on Apogees and other speakers. All were powerful, transparent and with holographic imaging. They were not particularly warm sounding, unlike the NAT preamps I have heard, which are all a bit warmish. I also found that they were a bit lacking in the ability to transport me emotionally...not sure if that had to do with the rest of the systems though. In addition to the NAT Plasma, which is full of emotion, BTW. I had the NAT hybrid, the Symbiosis SE. That one was a pain as it took over 2 hours to warm up properly and THEN it would sound deliriously holographic but before that it was a bit too stiff in the hips and I just could wait 2 hours every evening for it to warm up.

KR delivers really good sound on all kinds of speakers. The other one to consider is Aries Cerat. The Diana Integrated is a beast, sonically as well as physically. The new Diana Forte, at 60 watts, will drive the hell out of the Apogees for sure and is more transparent and has more dynamic slam than any of the others mentioned here. Have a look also at the Incito preamp. It is about 8.0K new and the design is very promising.

I have heard those NATs on those Apogees and others and they were nowhere compared to what a high powered class A can do on them, including a bridged Plinius, which on other speakers will not compete with NATs sonically.

The TRLs work great. The best way for Gary to make up his mind is to visit long island for TRL and San Diego to listen to NATs on Apogees. See what he likes. IMO SETs are for horns and the likes. And even there, OTLs like Tenor will work better than most.

Yes regarding the preamp the symmetrical and magnetic are great but not worth taking the risk in the US if he does not have a local techie.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Gary, I'm v touched by your comments to try these things w me, Ked and Brad in the same room
All I can say is, "be careful what you wish for"! LOL
You must know by now no audiophiles will easily agree on a lot, certainly none as opinionated as us
However, Ked is right I believe re SETs on Apogees
I've just heard TSW-modded Divas pwrd by Spectrals monos (Kondo pre), and even w this power and instant current, IMHO the Divas demanded more
The HiFi Advice review was right, they seem an infinite sponge for power
I'm not even sure active tri amping w Magmas would make these beasties come alive
The other conclusion I drew, after 2 hours of constant music listening, was that I couldn't really get on w the sonic fingerprint that was SS on Apogee, and trying to mellow things out w Kondo compounded matters
The Divas tone was grey and grainy, Spectrals had a glare to them
The scale, speed, imaging and staging were spectacular and well beyond any speakers I've heard in the past, but I struggled w perceived lack of transparency and tbh uninviting tone
I wasn't the only one at the demo who was unhappy w the overall sound
So yes, go SS to feed these Apogee monsters adequately, but just watch for that tone
For me, NATs are tone kings and my devotion to their cause means that I for one can't consider he Apogees despite what they are stellar at
FWIW, my feeling was that a darker, earthier SS like Gryphon would have worked on the Divas way better than the sharper Spectrals, w a much more transparent tubed pre than the Kondo, NATs Magnetostat may well have been the ticket

 

[bonzo75]

I haven't heard that system, but kondo and spectral, with kondo cables, might not be the right spectral set up. Also divas might be different from the duetta, FRs, I heard.

My choice for class A at the moment is the symphonic line Kraft, 300w class A, from Germany.

That aside, respect to you, Marc I thought you would be emotionally tied to NATs to say they should work on Apogees. I was wrong.

But this SET for all speakers is a joke. SETs are for certain speakers only. And even there, OTLs like tenor and Berning will embarrass many.

The tone of Apogee works better when driven by a good Class A as opposed to a SET. Ribbons need that current. Doesn't mean all SS will do it

 

[spiritofmusic]

I think you'll find many more than me are emotionally tied to gear
I knew within moments NATs would never have worked on these Divas, they were taking even the Spectrals to their limits
Not in terms of clipping, but in terms of exaggerating what might have been inaudible in other systems, this really unappetising SS glare
Combine that w a tangible lack of transparency that may well have been the pre, phono, cart and wiring loom (is any tubed gear as undeservedly revered as Kondo), and it made for one of the most coloured and uneven systems I've heard in a long time
Re the tone of these Divas, I did think long and hard after the demo if it was the gear controlling this
But tbh the tonality of the Audio Analysis Omegas on all-tubed NATs Transmitters/Magnetostat had a similar palette, and I'm surmising this is the general presentation of ribbons
If it is, it's really not for me
It may be more realistic ie as stark as one can often get at an unamplified music event, but there was no variation, and no depth or density
So for true to life scale, imaging and speed, sign me up to Apogees and SS
For tonal density and variation, they fell short, and for this reason I remain a SETs man to my core, realising my direction in life is NATs on Zus or horns if I really fancy a change

 

[bonzo75]

The tonal density of ribbons driven right will beat the tonal density of amplifiers in isolation. A couple of horns can match. The tone of Apogee varies from set up to set up, which is why I like only a few restored Apogees, not many older Apogees. In fact, I don't like most apogee set ups, yet few are by far the best things I have heard (short of Mad Mike). That said, I like the tone of the Analysis set up you heard, it is superior to many Apogees, though nothing compared to my favorite Ap set ups. Yes, the Analysis are short in dynamics and bass and scale compared to all Apogees.

 

[spiritofmusic]

If that's true, then Apogees are a bit like finding a rainbow
I realise the end result can be worth it, but the chase really is not for the faint hearted
Just the hours spent on adjusting the TSW crossovers is an effort in itself
No way would I have guessed Spectral would have been quite so "audible"
So, a bit of a never ending project these Apogees

 

[bonzo75]

Not really, you just order the apogee you like. My choices - the long island and Henk's apogee duetta, both different...Henk's FRs and Grands. Thekong's Apogee FRs with Aesthetix IO eclipse, and 2 biamped pass labs will be worth auditioning.

You need a lot of space for anything above a duetta. Forget having a full range if you don't have close to 30ft and some width.

 

[morricab]

I have heard those NATs on those Apogees and others and they were nowhere compared to what a high powered class A can do on them, including a bridged Plinius, which on other speakers will not compete with NATs sonically.

The TRLs work great. The best way for Gary to make up his mind is to visit long island for TRL and San Diego to listen to NATs on Apogees. See what he likes. IMO SETs are for horns and the likes. And even there, OTLs like Tenor will work better than most.

Yes regarding the preamp the symmetrical and magnetic are great but not worth taking the risk in the US if he does not have a local techie.

LOL... you act like I have never heard Apogees with big Class A SS, including Plinius and STAX...that is what we ALL started with because that was the conventional wisdom for Apogee ownership. You are quite late to the Apogee party, Bonzo. I am sure TRL amps work great, if you can get a pair. They are also, gigantic and probably all consuming in heat.

I disagree about Tenors, if you care about tone. It is like most OTLs in that the clarity is breathtaking but once you acclimate to that you realize the tone is a bit on the thin side of reality.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, you know how the people late to the party are often the loudest...
I just love how Ked declares everything he likes in high end audio is easy and straightforward
Analog better than digital? Sure, we can agree a lot on this, but he's swung by all the uber set up ones, yeah no wonder analog is a no brainer
Try and build a record collection and go thru dozens of hours trying to wrangle good sound out of a fussy tt
I have for three decades and there can be many more downs than ups at times
So yes Ked, no brainer great analog better in our mindset than digital, but just don't skip out the hard bit as if it's a formality
And now the same w ribbons
All I hear from Ked is Apogees are King, all you need to do is buy the best pair that fit in yr room, plop a SS in to fire them, and you're half way there
Well I'm here to tell you that an owner w SERIOUS resources, top Lp set up, uber uber power install, amps off the scale, and a room only me or you could dream of, STILL only got half the picture right ie scale, speed and imaging, the other half badly skewed ie tone, density, humanity of sound
If it was just a case of buying a pair and the rest comes easy, well the evidence seriously points the other way
No criticism intended of your heartfelt enthusiasm for the Apogees, I get that after hearing them
Just don't mislead punters by saying they are an easy choice and setup
The last thing I heard about those Divas was the crossovers needed hours of adjusting
Yep, a real straightfwd choice

 

[bonzo75]

Marc, looks like we are agreeing.

I never said Apogees are easy, nor is analog. Yet, we agree analog better than digital. Apogees do need research and finding the right apogee, they need the right real estate and wall behind the speakers. Not sure what we are arguing about, unless you want to, of course.

 

[bonzo75]

I disagree about Tenors, if you care about tone. It is like most OTLs in that the clarity is breathtaking but once you acclimate to that you realize the tone is a bit on the thin side of reality.

You are incorrect. Of course, knowing the way you extrapolate, "most OTLs" would come from the fact that you owned Silvawelds, and heard Tenors somewhere, and decided all OTLs are the same, without having done a proper compare of Tenors and SETs ever. Tenors actually rock at tone. Either way, people reading the forum can choose whether to take your word or Mike Lavigne's and jtinn's for it, and likewise, they can choose whether to go the way you do with Apogees or the way Graz and Henk (and ddk, who is a fan of SETs and owned Apogees but does not recommend the combo). Or of course, they can listen for themselves. Gian was there with me too when we compared Airtight 211 to Tenor

I am not saying TRLs are great either, I wouldn't know, but they are way better than SETs in driving Apogees.

 

[spiritofmusic]

There's really no point arguing if you don't address any of my points
Size of room, we can all agree on that
But if you choose not to even acknowledge my contention and counter w black and white statements, I'll move on