MSB Select DAC II. The way every DAC on the planet should be built.

[Ric Schultz]

Hasn't been the case for the Resonessence Mirus after 3 years. And it will be a game changer again once it has the new gen ESS chip retrofit board before the competition has a chance to build their version's I suppose you must choose your brands wisely.

I can't see software upgradable chipless DSD 1024 compatible DAC's going obsolete anytime soon either

What hasn't been the case? The Resonessence is simply an ESS DAC that does not even use more than one DAC chip and has op amps on the output. I am pretty sure the Lumin S1 with 4 parallel ESS DACS would likely kill it. Heck, your cheap 4490 DAC with discrete output stage and hand picked $3 clock beats it (that is what you said). The Resonessence will never be state of the art.....op amps? You have got to be kidding!!!! That is why you are selling/sold yours.....simply outdated and useless.

By the way, all chipless DSD DACs will sound different from each other (because of many things)....so again, what difference would it make if your manufacturer has a new version of software or hardware when another company may do better for less. DAC du jour, for sure.

 

[Blizzard]

What hasn't been the case? The Resonessence is simply an ESS DAC that does not even use more than one DAC chip and has op amps on the output. I am pretty sure the Lumin S1 with 4 parallel ESS DACS would likely kill it. Heck, your cheap 4490 DAC with discrete output stage and hand picked $3 clock beats it (that is what you said). The Resonessence will never be state of the art.....op amps? You have got to be kidding!!!! That is why you are selling/sold yours.....simply outdated and useless.

It actually uses 2 9018 chips in monoblock mode. A total of 8 channels of DAC paralleled per channel. I think you should maybe hear it before judging the sound. The guy I sold it to has decided to sell his PS audio Directstream after listening to it. Wait till the new chips are in it! It will be a game changer!

 

[Ric Schultz]

The Directstream had been beaten by the $2300 Yggy.......easy to beat a PS Audio. If and when a new ESS DAC chip comes out you will be able to get a board off Ebay in six months for $200 with it installed.....add better discrete shunt regulators than the 3 pin ordinary ones used by Resonessence for the DAC and add a single super discrete output stage running off shunt regs and add a good clock and you will slaughter the new board in the outdated Resonessence. Op amps and 3 pin regulators will never give the dynamics and reality you can get with shunt regs with no electrolytic caps on the output and a single discrete stage (as opposed to the two stage op amp thang in the Resonessence). It is history....will never be State of the Art.....it isn't now nor will it ever be.

 

[Blizzard]

The Directstream had been beaten by the $2300 Yggy.......easy to beat a PS Audio. If and when a new ESS DAC chip comes out you will be able to get a board off Ebay in six months for $200 with it installed.....add better discrete shunt regulators than the 3 pin ordinary ones used by Resonessence for the DAC and add a single super discrete output stage running off shunt regs and add a good clock and you will slaughter the new board in the outdated Resonessence. Op amps and 3 pin regulators will never give the dynamics and reality you can get with shunt regs with no electrolytic caps on the output and a single discrete stage (as opposed to the two stage op amp thang in the Resonessence). It is history....will never be State of the Art.....it isn't now nor will it ever be.

Sounds like with your knowledge you should come out with a new world standard for under $1000

 

[Ric Schultz]

My DAC will be 5 cents.....Charlie Brown wants it that way. Actually, I am shooting for a $2000 DAC with $1000 cost in parts and tweaking. It will not be "World Standard", "State of the Art", "Holy Grail", "Game Changer" or any such other exaggerations, which you seem to like. Hopefully, it will be the best at its price point (will A/B with modded Yggy). I will leave the "best there can be" for you.

 

[yincr]

Hi, I agree with Ric Schultz about the not so real advantage of modularity and upgrades. A few years ago, I bought a Bel Canto DAC3, later I upgrade it to DAC3.3MKIIVB, the upgrade also needed to buy an external power supply, everything cost a little more than the original DAC. Now, Bel Canto has the new DAC3.7, and Bel Canto says, there is no way to upgrade the DAC3.3MKIIVB to the new one. I had a pair of Nuforce REF3V2, you could upgrade it to V3 or V3SE, but Nuforce was sold, and they founded NuPrime, I guess that they would upgrade your products if you ask, but they say that the new products, that sounds as good or better, are better options than upgrade them. So, no company can promise and fulfill, that they will always have an upgrade path for an specific product, with reasonable costs.

I am not saying that Bel Canto and Nuforce decisions are not fair, what I think is, that they cannot predict the future, a company can change their product philosophy, their target market, could be sold, change management, fire the main designer, business model, etc. So, upgradability is not the holly grail, it is just a business model that seduces certain kind of customers.

 

[Blizzard]

Hi, I agree with Ric Schultz about the not so real advantage of modularity and upgrades. A few years ago, I bought a Bel Canto DAC3, later I upgrade it to DAC3.3MKIIVB, the upgrade also needed to buy an external power supply, everything cost a little more than the original DAC. Now, Bel Canto has the new DAC3.7, and Bel Canto says, there is no way to upgrade the DAC3.3MKIIVB to the new one. I had a pair of Nuforce REF3V2, you could upgrade it to V3 or V3SE, but Nuforce was sold, and they founded NuPrime, I guess that they would upgrade your products if you ask, but they say that the new products, that sounds as good or better, are better options than upgrade them. So, no company can promise and fulfill, that they will always have an upgrade path for an specific product, with reasonable costs.

I am not saying that Bel Canto and Nuforce decisions are not fair, what I think is, that they cannot predict the future, a company can change their product philosophy, their target market, could be sold, change management, fire the main designer, business model, etc. So, upgradability is not the holly grail, it is just a business model that seduces certain kind of customers.

Just because some manufacturers made poor design decisions, doesn't mean all manufacturers have to make poor design decisions as well.

Besides even with your example, would the units had been better value if they didn't offer a single upgrade option from the beginning at all?

You could of just chose to not upgrade at all, and pretended the upgrades weren't offered in the first place.

 

[yincr]

So, your point is that I should buy upgradeable products, from manufacturers who do not make poor design decisions. How do I know which manufacturers always make good design decisions?. I think your idea of modularity is good in theory, but not so good in practice.

 

[Blizzard]

So, your point is that I should buy upgradeable products, from manufactures who do not make poor design decisions. How do I know which manufacturers always make good design decisions?. I think your idea of modularity is good in theory, but not so good in practice.

This is why research is important no matter what you're buying in this world, if you don't want to get burnt. Without this you're just rolling a dice and hoping luck's on your side. The example I've mentioned several times in this thread of the Resonessence Mirus, is a great one if you're looking for a smart design that will last a 10 year life span, and still be on the top of the heap at the price point for the whole duration. 2 simple credit card sized boards, along with firmware updates will allow this.

The same DAC that was making headlines in 2012 will be once again in 2016 and 2017 with these simple upgrades. And I wouldn't expect a complete hardware platform change until 2022. This is because of the design, it simply won't be required no matter where technology takes us. I suppose the fact that they make the chips in their DAC's, along with over 50% of high end DAC's on the market give them the edge on knowing what the future will hold. This is a great example of how the value of research pays off, it can provide you with this knowledge.

BTW I was just at the machine shop today that machines their DAC cases out of solid bricks of aluminum. You wouldn't believe the attention to detail that goes into those DAC's. They definitely don't belong in the disposable category.


This is their new Veritas DAC. The most impressive part is the inside that's milled to shield each board from interference. They went through over a dozen prototypes to get it perfect. The finish is outstanding. Even the aluminum plate that goes on the bottom is machined from aluminum. It's built to swiss watch standards. I was told each case takes over 25 hours to machine! And that's just the beginning. They have to prepare the surface for anodizing to get the perfect finish. Then the anodizing process is very intricate as well. It's not often you see this level of workmanship in a $3500 DAC.

 

[Ric Schultz]

Every single thing you do in a product affects the sound. At $3500 retail you have maybe $600 in cost of parts. If you put a lot of that in the case then you have less for other important things. You know how good a single discrete output stage is. Is there going to be one inside this thing....or is it op amps as usual? The size of the transformer makes a big difference in sound. I will have a 135 watt split bobbin transformer in my DAC just for the analog stages (and a second transformer for the digital). Looks like a tiny transformer/power supply going this this jobbie. How about the connectors?....yes, they make a difference in the sound. Looks like 25 cent jobbies in the pic. Are they going to use high current discrete shunt regulators?....nope, would not even fit. I am sure the machined case will make some improvement in sound. However, I would take all the other goodies I just named any day over a well done machined chassis. At $10K and above is where this sort of thing makes sense. Do the stuff that makes the most SONIC difference first and does not cost a arm and a leg...this is how to make equipment that performs above its price range.

I am not saying this DAC is not good or good for the money. But how does it compare to a $2500 modded Yggy.....that has separate transformers for the analog and digital....discrete output stages, etc.? Even the cheapest Schiit DAC (upgradable $400 Bifrost) has discrete output stages and AKM 4490 chip in it. Check out the $3200 new DAC from Bryston: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138471.0 Has dual 4490 DACs, discrete output stages, balanced outs, multiple HDMI inputs, large power supply, etc. but ordinary box. Which will sound better?

 

[Barry]

At $3500 retail you have maybe $600 in cost of parts.

This 6 to 1 ratio of parts cost (including labor inputs) to retail is an excellent economic point that a lot of people, including maybe some in this discussion, may not fully appreciate. A DIY or mods/upgrade model is a totally different approach than the standard retail distribution one because of that. You really can't compare the end cost and product results of both because they have different objectives and value chains along the way to the end consumer.

Looking at the trend of consumer audio electronics, or any retail products for that matter, people increasingly value plug and play, compactness, portability, and convenience. There's a reason for that. Few people have the time, inclination, or knowledge to take equipment apart and swap parts. Technological obsolescence is expected and the used marketplace blunts some of the consumer cost of that. If modularity made any economic sense, you'd see a lot more of it, not just in audio, but everywhere.

 

[Blizzard]

This 6 to 1 ratio of parts cost (including labor inputs) to retail is an excellent economic point that a lot of people, including maybe some in this discussion, may not fully appreciate. A DIY or mods/upgrade model is a totally different approach than the standard retail distribution one because of that. You really can't compare the end cost and product results of both because they have different objectives and value chains along the way to the end consumer.

Looking at the trend of consumer audio electronics, or any retail products for that matter, people increasingly value plug and play, compactness, portability, and convenience. There's a reason for that. Few people have the time, inclination, or knowledge to take equipment apart and swap parts. Technological obsolescence is expected and the used marketplace blunts some of the consumer cost of that. If modularity made any economic sense, you'd see a lot more of it, not just in audio, but everywhere.

Yes it may not make economic sense for the manufacturer. Why sell the customer a low cost part to upgrade, when you can sell him a complete unit?

However, from a consumer perspective, I'll spend my money on the DAC that has a 10 year lifespan of being cutting edge with a few minor low cost upgrades.

 

[Ric Schultz]

It's just your opinion that "some DAC has a 10 year lifespan of being cutting edge". The Resonessence DACs are not state of the art nor will ever be.....that is my opinion. Heck, you sold yours because you can make something better for way less. If they are not using discrete output stages (you have heard this yourself, so you know how important this is!!!!), shunt regulators, multiple parallel DACs, super tweaks (Magic Tubes, WA Quantum chips, damping, super sounding resistors, exotic rectifiers, super sounding power supply caps, giant power transformers, etc., etc.) then they will never make anything state of the art.

I was not talking about a different model than the 6 to 1 ratio thang. I am not talking about direct sales or mods. If you use the 6 to 1 ratio in the "best sounding way"....then you get the best sonic result for the retail price. I don't believe a machined aluminum box is the best way to use that 6 to 1. Obviously, the tiny DAC shown is meant to be used in a "small" system. However, for $3500 I would rather have great sound in an ordinary box than good sound in an expensive box. However, some value looks over everything. Myself, I just want musicians in the room!

 

[Blizzard]

It's just your opinion that "some DAC has a 10 year lifespan of being cutting edge". The Resonessence DACs are not state of the art nor will ever be.....that is my opinion. Heck, you sold yours because you can make something better for way less. If they are not using discrete output stages (you have heard this yourself, so you know how important this is!!!!), shunt regulators, multiple parallel DACs, super tweaks (Magic Tubes, WA Quantum chips, damping, super sounding resistors, exotic rectifiers, super sounding power supply caps, giant power transformers, etc., etc.) then they will never make anything state of the art.

I was not talking about a different model than the 6 to 1 ratio thang. I am not talking about direct sales or mods. If you use the 6 to 1 ratio in the "best sounding way"....then you get the best sonic result for the retail price. I don't believe a machined aluminum box is the best way to use that 6 to 1. Obviously, the tiny DAC shown is meant to be used in a "small" system. However, for $3500 I would rather have great sound in an ordinary box than good sound in an expensive box. However, some value looks over everything. Myself, I just want musicians in the room!

I'm not sure why you have such a negative opinion of a DAC, or DAC's you have never heard before. I sold mine because I'm making my own DAC's and I don't need it anymore. Not because it's a bad DAC. There's a lot of engineering that goes into them that is far beyond your comprehension. This is because a lot of it is hidden in the FPGA's and chips.When you are the designer of the DAC chip, you are very familiar with how it functions.

If you have the ability to build better products, do it then. At the price range of all of their DAC's, you will be hard pressed to find better. Also you must realize people don't want products that look like a high school science project either.

 

[seriouslyhifi]

Can someone educate/comment on the sound of the new MSB Select 2 objectively and if he has made any comparisons against other great DAC`s out there. That is what we all would like to know really. We all know the Select 2 DAC costs 90K. It is a given that anything in life which is cutting edge or state of art is not worth the extra bucks, and that is an individual perception. What does the Select 2 sound like please?

 

[DaveyF]

Can someone educate/comment on the sound of the new MSB Select 2 objectively and if he has made any comparisons against other great DAC`s out there. That is what we all would like to know really. We all know the Select 2 DAC costs 90K. It is a given that anything in life which is cutting edge or state of art is not worth the extra bucks, and that is an individual perception. What does the Select 2 sound like please?

Maybe I can jump in here. I have heard the MSB Select DAC...and it is superb. The ability to portray air and to resolve small detail is excellent, easily up there with the best DAC's I have ever heard. The other very impressive aspect of this DAC is its ability with the run of the mill Redbook. As the designer noted, there is not such a huge difference between high res and the standard Redbook reproduction when using this DAC. I have heard the Lampizator and the Trinity and the excellent for the money- Luxman DA06, all are great at their respective price points. I think the MSB is more resolving ( slightly) than all of the others, but I also think the differences are not so great that I would trade the others and pay the large price difference. IMHO, none of them are up to the standard of great vinyl...let alone great tape. (For $90K one could get a great reel to reel set up that would leave the MSB in the dust, just to put this into perspective).

 

[lassej]

For $90,000 they should send you the upgraded parts for free if upgrades are available within the first few years after purchasing it.

Agree!

 

[CKKeung]

IMHO, none of them are up to the standard of great vinyl...let alone great tape. (For $90K one could get a great reel to reel set up that would leave the MSB in the dust, just to put this into perspective).

Hi DaveyF,

Audiophiles in Asia are not familiar with Reel to Reel setups. Where can we buy the softwares/reel-tapes?

For vinyl, some are current productions and buying used ones is very convenient in Discogs & eBay which have near-infinite choices.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi DaveyF,

Audiophiles in Asia are not familiar with Reel to Reel setups. Where can we buy the softwares/reel-tapes?

For vinyl, some are current productions and buying used ones is very convenient in Discogs & eBay which have near-infinite choices.

here is a list which is now 2 years old with a few.....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?9893-Commercially-available-reel-tapes

 

[Blizzard]

here is a list which is now 2 years old with a few.....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?9893-Commercially-available-reel-tapes

Much more convenient and cost effective than digital downloads. Not to mention the vast selection