Let's Help A Music Lover Make A Big Difference

[Johnny Vinyl]

I do use an Oppo in my Home Theatre for the last few years, one version back, and have had a few various Oppo's (one the higher 'audiophile' version) brought to my system by their owners to compare to my Playbacks Design. it's not bad, not great.....at it's price it's a good value universal player. in that general price range I'd likely choose the Mytek Digital as hard to beat at bang for the buck at $1695 if you could trade the Oppo at retail. but really at what you can get for the Oppo used it's not a viable way to go to pursue in the context of overall system performance.

I don't know that Cambridge integrated, but again the alternatives after selling the Cambridge used are not likely much better.

speakers is where the needle can be moved the most predictably, and better speakers allow for the 'next' step to make a bigger difference too.

That may be, but with the Cambridge being only 45wpc you'll be limiting your options. What if he likes the sound of a particular speaker that has a very low efficiency rating? His headroom would be greatly reduced, so good luck cranking them up!

Sorry to disagree, but I'm sticking with changing the amp first.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That may be, but with the Cambridge being only 45wpc you'll be limiting your options. What if he likes the sound of a particular speaker that has a very low efficiency rating? His headroom would be greatly reduced, so good luck cranking them up!

Sorry to disagree, but I'm sticking with changing the amp first.

the question is what is the next logical step for performance improvement for $2k. my opinion is that an ordinary $500 integrated amplifier will sound much better with an intelligently chosen used set of speakers that originally retailed for $5k to $7k, than that set of JBL's with the integrated amp (or separate amp and pre) you might find for the $200 you could sell the Cambridge integrated for plus the $2k. the performance difference between the two amps would be much less than the performance difference between the speakers. and you could choose the speakers to work in the room and with the amp.

speakers rule at modest levels of gear......it's the 'hard part'.

and as far as cranking them up, all the nits and nats of the mid-fi speakers simply become more of an issue.

I've listened to very expensive speakers on very modestly priced amplifiers (used for doing initial break-in 24/7 for the speakers), and they still sound pretty good. OTOH a crappy set of speakers gets in the way of decent electronics. it's the weak link.

lots more distortion in marginal/modest/budget speakers than in marginal/modest/budget electronics....compared to higher price levels of either.

 

[mauidan]

Get this mod for his Oppo:

http://modwright.com/modifications/oppo-bdp83-and-bdp83se-mod.php

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Get this mod for his Oppo:

http://modwright.com/modifications/oppo-bdp83-and-bdp83se-mod.php

at $2495 it's not in the budget that Tim gave us.

from the ModWright website;

Customer must supply the player and may have it drop-shipped to our address from Oppo.com or other re-seller.

and at $3700 total there are lots of alternative digital choices.

 

[Bruce B]

I know room acoustics aren't sexy and too many people are hung up on equipment. Acoustics are the biggest bang for the buck you can make!!

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Since Tim's friend has said he wants to use his $2K tax refund on improving his system he must have an idea as to what he feels is lacking. Perhaps we need that answer first.

 

[BobM]

I agree with one of the first posts ...

If he likes the sound and presentation that the speakers give him I would suggest spending $1000 on a used tube integrated amp from a company like Melody or Line Magnetic or Primaluna. Tubes will certainly tame those speakers and likely increase his musical enjoyment of them.

Then take the next $500 and get some room treatments on his first reflection points. room treatments, by far, and optomizing the placement of the speakers will have the biggest performance improvement.

Then take the last $500 and buy more music, along with the proceeds from the sale of his Cambridge.

 

[JackD201]

Since Tim's friend has said he wants to use his $2K tax refund on improving his system he must have an idea as to what he feels is lacking. Perhaps we need that answer first.

It is my understanding from the OP that there is no friend and this is an exercise of sorts.

Tim?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It is my understanding from the OP that there is no friend and this is an exercise of sorts.

Tim?

Correct, Jack. The friend is hypothetical. I just thought it would make an interesting discussion, and it has, for me anyway. I've enjoyed seeing the wide range of responses. If you want to keep playing, assume this: He enjoys his system and his music now, but he has a buddy who is an audiophile, and he has caught the bug. Convinced that his system can sound even better, and with a $2k tax refund in hand, he's looking for an upgrade. For the sake of argument, let's assume the typical domestic listening space with thick carpet, over stuffed furniture, and lots of diffusion. It's not a bad-sounding space, but like most typical domestic listening spaces, it could probably use a little help.

Tim

 

[esldude]

I am a big believer in building from the speakers backward. If the friend is happy with his speakers that gives us something to work with. It also means the improvements are less obvious.

So problems: his amp isn't big enough. Even JBL suggests 200 watt amps for this speaker. He has redundant DACs. Unless he still spins lots of silver discs the Oppo really has no purpose.

So I propose a Wyred4Sound STI 500 at $1499. 250 wpc. at 8 ohms. One drives my power hungry Soundlabs better than anything I have had connected to them and sounds good doing it. The JBL is a piece of cake as would be many speakers compared to my Soundlabs.

https://wyred4sound.com/products/stereo/st-mkii-series

Next this unit from Emotiva. Currently being replaced I believe so available new for $219.

https://emotiva.com/products/dacs/xda-2

Has USB input, does up to 192khz if that matters. Remote control, digital inputs, functions as a pre-amp and has a good headphone amp. I know someone with one. Works well. There are similar units available in the $400-500 range which keep you in budget. Has balanced out for the Wyred4sound and a trigger to turn the pair on and off together.

Now he will accrue at least a few hundred selling the Oppo and Cambridge audio which will be on top of the $2k. If he wishes to get that involved, I would suggest buying one of the Room EQ/Correction softwares available. That will benefit him as much as replacing speakers perhaps. If he is more casual he may need a set it up and forget it system in which case I don't suggest Room correction at least not yet. Room treatment might be a better use of money anyway first.

Or he could buy more music with those funds. Or he might after a period with the first two components, sell the Oppo, Cambridge and JBL speakers netting enough to purchase some 2nd hand speakers of even better quality. His front end wouldn't constrain his choice of speakers at that point.

Or if he is a bass head then a pair of modest powered subs. All depends on the happiness with his current speakers and his tastes in sound.

Still when all is said and done, if he is looking for the big wow, he needs different speakers. Not that anything is wrong with JBL's listed, just that is where big differences are. I do think a truly powerful amp will make a real difference for him. Otherwise we are talking streamlining things with some minor improvements in sound quality at best, and increases in convenience for day to day use.

 

[AMP]

Since Tim's friend has said he wants to use his $2K tax refund on improving his system he must have an idea as to what he feels is lacking. Perhaps we need that answer first.

It is my understanding from the OP that there is no friend and this is an exercise of sorts.

Tim?

OK, but given that there are obviously a significant number of different ways that this can go the most important piece of information has been left out. The friend wants to "improve" his system, but we have no parameters by which to judge an improvement nor do we have any metric by which to justify one improvement over another.

In other words, what deficiency is the friend perceiving? Based on the way that the scenario was setup this individual is not a typical audiophile and isn't going to think like one nor is he going to use the typical audiophile lingo. I can see a number of ways in which this system could be deficient, but without the perspective of the owner of the system there's not enough information to go on.

Is he wanting for more or better bass?
Does he find that when he listens to it he gets agitated or can only listen for brief periods?
Does he find that with certain types of music (which he otherwise loves) that the system fails to hold his interest?
Does a favorite instrument not sound "correct" to him anymore? In what way?
Did he just inherit an LP collection and wants to be able to play them?

Some of these issues require hardware and some could be completely (or at least partially) corrected with some attention to the setup of the system and the acoustics of the room.

We always jump to the conclusion that something new and shiny is the way to further our own systems since we've gone through huge pains to tune our systems to the limits of their performance. In this case I think that we're forgetting that the owner of this system would likely realize some huge gains through some good practical advice and if he still wants to spend money after that then he'll likely be in a better position to maximize his dollar.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

OK, but given that there are obviously a significant number of different ways that this can go the most important piece of information has been left out. The friend wants to "improve" his system, but we have no parameters by which to judge an improvement nor do we have any metric by which to justify one improvement over another.

In other words, what deficiency is the friend perceiving? Based on the way that the scenario was setup this individual is not a typical audiophile and isn't going to think like one nor is he going to use the typical audiophile lingo. I can see a number of ways in which this system could be deficient, but without the perspective of the owner of the system there's not enough information to go on.

Is he wanting for more or better bass?
Does he find that when he listens to it he gets agitated or can only listen for brief periods?
Does he find that with certain types of music (which he otherwise loves) that the system fails to hold his interest?
Does a favorite instrument not sound "correct" to him anymore? In what way?
Did he just inherit an LP collection and wants to be able to play them?

Some of these issues require hardware and some could be completely (or at least partially) corrected with some attention to the setup of the system and the acoustics of the room.

We always jump to the conclusion that something new and shiny is the way to further our own systems since we've gone through huge pains to tune our systems to the limits of their performance. In this case I think that we're forgetting that the owner of this system would likely realize some huge gains through some good practical advice and if he still wants to spend money after that then he'll likely be in a better position to maximize his dollar.

Yes, we always jump to that conclusion, and our hypothetical friend has done the same. He's got a pretty good system, has no specific complaints, but believes it can be better and has turned to you, his audiophile friend, for advice. What would make the biggest impact for $2k? Pretty simple, really, especially given that we have a pretty modest system with some redundancy and at least one obvious mismatch (power to speaker load).

Tim

 

[mojave]

Who saves a tax refund until August?

I would recommend the following:
JRiver Id - Intel NUC running Linux and JRiver Media Center for $315
Rythmik Audio F12G Subwoofer for using the paper based GR-Research servo driver $874
Odyssey Audio Khartago Stereo Amplifier for $895
Total: $2084
Can you sell the Cambridge for $84 or more. I'm not sure about shipping charges on the subwoofer or amplifier.

The Oppo and Id both have bass management and volume control. No preamp is necessary.

Benefits:

• Elimination of an analog component in the signal chain
• No extra A/D and D/A step (currently performed by Cambridge)
• The Id can connect to the Oppo with HDMI, USB, or Ethernet. This allows one to increase his audiophile credibility by comparing and concluding one method sounds best.
• Storage on the Id of up to 100 CD's lossless - can add more with external drive later
• Can play from other sources like DLNA devices, internet, a friend's JRiver library, etc.
• Control with Android or iOs devices
• Can stream music to other Android or DLNA devices
• Can use other Oppo analog outputs for other zones in the house or on the deck
• 64 bit Parametric EQ - improve bass frequency response
• Lower distortion in the speakers by removing the lower frequencies
• Additional headroom and dynamics with the amp
• Additional headroom and dynamics with the subwoofer
• Better frequency response possible with the subwoofer because of placement
• Better quality bass and midbass due to servo

You end up with improvements in control, ease of access to music, DAC quality, speakers, bass, dynamics, frequency response, and headroom.

 

[audioguy]

Address room acoustics with some treatments perhaps?

What he said. Given he is already basically happy with the sound, clean it up by dealing with the room. Best bang for the buck by far (IMO).

 

[RogerD]

Yes, we always jump to that conclusion, and our hypothetical friend has done the same. He's got a pretty good system, has no specific complaints, but believes it can be better and has turned to you, his audiophile friend, for advice. What would make the biggest impact for $2k? Pretty simple, really, especially given that we have a pretty modest system with some redundancy and at least one obvious mismatch (power to speaker load).

Tim

Ok your friend feels that 45wpc and 90db sensitivity is a mismatch....alot of people have the same problem Keep the speakers,sell the cambridge and buy something like this....http://app.audiogon.com/listings/so...6500-2014-08-14-amplifiers-94306-palo-alto-ca

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/so...14-08-03-integrateds-22039-fairfax-station-va

you can do the inexpensive changes I suggested on the fly. Atleast this will get him where he wants to be and when he upgrades if ever he won't take a bath.


I understand I have 5 amplifiers 4000W and 96db sensitivity mismatches are a bitch

If he likes my kind of mismatch....

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/s...014-07-28-integrateds-47906-west-lafayette-in

 

[Old Listener]

Let's assume we have a friend, not an audiophile, but a serious music lover who has made what is, for him, a serious investment in a 2-channel system, what most here would call midfi:

[ gear list]

So we've got a system that, set up well, will sound pretty good, for around $3500. He comes to you, the audiophile, and says he wants to spend his $2k tax refund on upgrading his listening experience. What would you recommend for maximum improvement, and why? Specs are available online.

1. JRiver Media Center ~ $ 60.

2. Measurement microphone. No dollar figure but not terribly expensive.

3. REW software for room measurements.

Some time and effort to learn how the system is doing in his room and make some cheap/free adjustments to speaker and listener positions.

Then if significant problems still exist, he should consider getting some room tuning products.

Use what's left on buying music.

Listen to a lot of music for a long time before considering spending much money on upgrades to the gear he has.

Listen to pragmatic people who want to help him rather than to push their favorite gear on him.

 

[c1ferrari]

Try some analog

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Actually, I'm the one who thinks the speakers and amp are a mismatch. Well, me and JBL, who recommends a lot more power than that. I also have a much higher opinion of midrange JBL speakers, evidently, than Mike does. I think they're plenty refined -- relatively flat FR, excellent dynamic range when properly amped, good staging and imaging, and reasonably low distortion. A touch of incoherence that's typical of the mix of horns and cones, but not much. I can think of a few respected high-end speakers that would have trouble competing with the JBLs at 3 or 4 times the cost. So for the short step up, I'd upgrade the amp and give those JBLs some room to breathe. An Emotiva XPS1 pre at $1k and an XPA2 amp at $900 should do the trick.

But I think you can take an even bigger leap in that budget. That Oppo is an excellent source, and it has a volume control and balanced XLR outputs. Plug in a pair of mid sized, active monitors (surprise!). For the music lover I'd probably go with Dynaudios. They're a bit softer, warmer and more forgiving, a bit more like typical audiophile speakers than most monitors. The BM6 MKII, at $1400 for the pair would do nicely. Add a BM9 SII sub for another $1k. Sell the JBLs and the Cambridge and you're under budget. They come bundled with excellent isolation platforms. Set them on top of a couple of concrete columns from your local yard art store and you'll be shocked what they'd do, even in a good-sized room. The Dynas are not the best of the breed, but they're friendly. And set out in the room on stands, the imaging will just kill. Smooth as silk. A touch on the warm, cuddly side. Definitely a departure from big horns straining for enough power.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

Actually, I'm the one who thinks the speakers and amp are a mismatch. Well, me and JBL, who recommends a lot more power than that. I also have a much higher opinion of midrange JBL speakers, evidently, than Mike does. I think they're plenty refined -- relatively flat FR, excellent dynamic range when properly amped, good staging and imaging, and reasonably low distortion. A touch of incoherence that's typical of the mix of horns and cones, but not much. I can think of a few respected high-end speakers that would have trouble competing with the JBLs at 3 or 4 times the cost. So for the short step up, I'd upgrade the amp and give those JBLs some room to breathe. An Emotiva XPS1 pre at $1k and an XPA2 amp at $900 should do the trick.

But I think you can take an even bigger leap in that budget. That Oppo is an excellent source, and it has a volume control and balanced XLR outputs. Plug in a pair of mid sized, active monitors (surprise!). For the music lover I'd probably go with Dynaudios. They're a bit softer, warmer and more forgiving, a bit more like typical audiophile speakers than most monitors. The BM6 MKII, at $1400 for the pair would do nicely. Add a BM9 SII sub for another $1k. Sell the JBLs and the Cambridge and you're under budget. They come bundled with excellent isolation platforms. Set them on top of a couple of concrete columns from your local yard art store and you'll be shocked what they'd do, even in a good-sized room. The Dynas are not the best of the breed, but they're friendly. And set out in the room on stands, the imaging will just kill. Smooth as silk. A touch on the warm, cuddly side. Definitely a departure from big horns straining for enough power.

Tim

I love my Dynaudios. the D54 midrange is killer and yes they do image like crazy. I like your solution.

 

[microstrip]

Actually, I'm the one who thinks the speakers and amp are a mismatch. Well, me and JBL, who recommends a lot more power than that. I also have a much higher opinion of midrange JBL speakers, evidently, than Mike does. I think they're plenty refined -- relatively flat FR, excellent dynamic range when properly amped, good staging and imaging, and reasonably low distortion. A touch of incoherence that's typical of the mix of horns and cones, but not much. I can think of a few respected high-end speakers that would have trouble competing with the JBLs at 3 or 4 times the cost. So for the short step up, I'd upgrade the amp and give those JBLs some room to breathe. An Emotiva XPS1 pre at $1k and an XPA2 amp at $900 should do the trick.

But I think you can take an even bigger leap in that budget. That Oppo is an excellent source, and it has a volume control and balanced XLR outputs. Plug in a pair of mid sized, monitors (surprise!). For the music lover I'd probably go with Dynaudios. They're a bit softer, warmer and more forgiving, a bit more like typical audiophile speakers than most monitors. The BM6 MKII, at $1400 for the pair would do nicely. Add a BM9 SII sub for another $1k. Sell the JBLs and the Cambridge and you're under budget. They come bundled with excellent isolation platforms. Set them on top of a couple of concrete columns from your local yard art store and you'll be shocked what they'd do, even in a good-sized room. The Dynas are not the best of the breed, but they're friendly. And set out in the room on stands, the imaging will just kill. Smooth as silk. A touch on the warm, cuddly side. Definitely a departure from big horns straining for enough power.

Tim

Tim,

Now I really see why the Oppo was included from start ... I could not understand why you had started with a $1200 source in such system!