Janis Ian 'Between the Lines' Remaster v Original Pressing

[Bill Hart]

I like this album. I have several copies from 1975, including one that i bought a few months ago, sealed. I also bought the recently remastered version.
Today, during a listening session with a few astute listeners assembled (and the TT had just been completely gone over, re-levelling, including arm (remember, I use a lateral tracker), azimuth using the fogozometer, VTF, VTA, etc), i first played the remaster. It sounded lifeless, flat and sterile. Pulled out one of the 1975 copies- the magic was there, much more alive, deep, warm. Anybody else have this experience with this record? I know that in some cases, the remaster/reissue is often the only choice because the originals are tres cher, but that's not the case here. You can probably find a decent copy of this record on e-bay or whatever, for 10 or 15 bucks. And even the sealed copy I bought of the 1975 pressing was cheaper than the remaster. What went wrong? Not a rant against remasters in general, but this was surprising, because I thought the remaster was well-received.

 

[mep]

Was the remaster made from the master tape or was it made from a digital file?

 

[Bill Hart]

Was the remaster made from the master tape or was it made from a digital file?

According to the usual online sources that sell it, from the original analog tapes.

 

[mep]

Either the master tape has deteriorated or the mastering job was butchered.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I like this album. I have several copies from 1975, including one that i bought a few months ago, sealed. I also bought the recently remastered version.
Today, during a listening session with a few astute listeners assembled (and the TT had just been completely gone over, re-levelling, including arm (remember, I use a lateral tracker), azimuth using the fogozometer, VTF, VTA, etc), i first played the remaster. It sounded lifeless, flat and sterile. Pulled out one of the 1975 copies- the magic was there, much more alive, deep, warm. Anybody else have this experience with this record? I know that in some cases, the remaster/reissue is often the only choice because the originals are tres cher, but that's not the case here. You can probably find a decent copy of this record on e-bay or whatever, for 10 or 15 bucks. And even the sealed copy I bought of the 1975 pressing was cheaper than the remaster. What went wrong? Not a rant against remasters in general, but this was surprising, because I thought the remaster was well-received.

The original Analogue Productions remaster of Janis Ian?

 

[Bill Hart]

The original Analogue Productions remaster of Janis Ian?

I'll have to look Myles, it was touted as 180 g Kevin Grey (sp?) remaster under Boxstar? record label. I was thinking maybe difference in VTA between that and the older, thinner CBS record, but this was more profound than what i usually experience in different record thicknesses, e.g. going from heavy vinyl to 'thin vinyl.' And 180 ain't that 'heavy.'

 

[Bill Hart]

Either the master tape has deteriorated or the mastering job was butchered.

Certainly possible- i'll give it another go, and fidget more with the VTA, but as i just mentioned in responding to Myles, I normally don't hear something sound that flat and lifeless if the VTA is too low because the record is a little thicker. And the TT was really tweaked to top order with the help (well, i stood by and flinched a couple times) of somebody very good at this TT/arm combo.
Was curious if anybody else had both records and had the same result- it is sort of an audiophile classic, isn't it?

 

[Mosin]

The album, believe it or not, won a Grammy in the classical recording category.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I'll have to look Myles, it was touted as 180 g Kevin Grey (sp?) remaster under Boxstar? record label. I was thinking maybe difference in VTA between that and the older, thinner CBS record, but this was more profound than what i usually experience in different record thicknesses, e.g. going from heavy vinyl to 'thin vinyl.' And 180 ain't that 'heavy.'

Oh OK I was thinking Janis Ian's Breaking Silence, originally remastered by AP and now just reissued again by AP.

 

[Mosin]

Oh OK I was thinking Janis Ian's Breaking Silence, originally remastered by AP and now just reissued again by AP.

That is a really good album, but Between the Lines has to be the best, in my opinion. One that goes unnoticed, and that the critics panned, is Miracle Row. I believe that one is a great album. I listen to it a lot more than the others because Ian showed real creativity with it. I had to buy around five copies to find a perfect one, though.

 

[MylesBAstor]

That is a really good album, but Between the Lines has to be the best, in my opinion. One that goes unnoticed, and that the critics panned, is Miracle Row. I believe that one is a great album. I listen to it a lot more than the others because Ian showed real creativity with it. I had to buy around five copies to find a perfect one, though.

She's playing in the City in November and am planning to get tickets to see her

 

[Bill Hart]

The album, believe it or not, won a Grammy in the classical recording category.

she is a fabulous songwriter. I saw her performance in that era circa 1975-76. I think she is sorta local NY/NJ, maybe wrong. that album was recorded near where i live right now, in rockland county. go figure. when you look at all the supporting players, strings, etc. it's quite a production. my buddy, who lives locally and is a pro, said that the studio (which i'm sure is long gone, probably a donut shop and nail parlor or something) and the musical director on that album were total heavy weights back in that era.

 

[Bill Hart]

Oh OK I was thinking Janis Ian's Breaking Silence, originally remastered by AP and now just reissued again by AP.

That one is an over the top production, it does have some good songs, for some reason i equate it with the one Phoebe Snow did before she died, also a very 'produced' sound- demo material.

 

[Bill Hart]

She's playing in the City in November and am planning to get tickets to see her

good to know, at one point, i think she did play our local club; i know phoebe was scheduled to, cancelled, and then went and died.

 

[janisian]

Hello all, Janis Ian here. While I'm always glad to hear my work being talked about,t his really saddens me. Between the Lines was an amazing album sonically, due entirely to the brilliance of the producer/engineer Brooks Arthur and his second in command, engineer Larry Alexander. We had great musicians, a great studio, and the rest is history. (By the way, it did not have anything to do with a Grammy in the classical category. It won for best engineered, and best female vocalist.)
It's unfortunate that due to the nature of our contracts, most of us have zero control over reissues like this one. I was able to remaster from original sources for several of the tracks I put on my own "Best of Janis Ian: The Autobiography Songs", but I had no control over the Boxstar release. Ditto the current Sony CD, which is a horrendous piece of trash that doesn't even provide musician credits, let alone decent sonic quality. Brooks and I have begged Sony for years to let us remaster - at my cost entirely! - and give them new artwork, but they're not interested.
I haven't listened in a while, but the remastered versions we supplied to DMG - Demon Music Group - and to Sony Japan were from "best available sources", and might be considerably better. However, they're CD's, not vinyl. If anyone in this forum would like to hear them, I'm glad to send a couple of free copies. Please email my personal address, janisianmail@earthlink.net .
Breaking Silence is somewhat the same story, but with a slightly happier ending. Morgan Creek, who own the master everywhere but Japan and Benelux (where I own it), refuse to either license it to me for a reasonable fee (or a percentage) so I can keep it alive, or put it out with the high quality it deserves. However, I did have copies of the original analog tapes, well preserved, and that it what the releases you may be able to find on CD are from - particularly the Japanese and earlier Benelux/European releases.
Funnily enough, Jeff Balding, who produced and engineered "Breaking", also did an album called Billie's Bones with me a few years ago, and I paid a great deal of money to have a beautiful vinyl editon done because the sonics were so beautiful. Sadly, we were about 5 years ahead of our time, and couldn't give the vinyl away. This afternoon, walking into an Urban Outfitters, I realized I should just have held onto it. But if you can find a copy, it's also a stunning sonic tour de force.
Thanks for listening!

 

[Steve Williams]

Wow Janis

A big welcome to WBF and thanks for telling us the sad reality about such things in the industry. We all loo forward to future comments from you

 

[Whatmore]

Wow Janis

A big welcome to WBF and thanks for telling us the sad reality about such things in the industry. We all loo forward to future comments from you

WOW +1 from me
I am a huge fan Janis, an honour to have you on this forum

 

[janisian]

WOW +1 from me
I am a huge fan Janis, an honour to have you on this forum

thanks, very kind of you both. For the record, I'm not on line a lot except for email - but it looks like a great forum, and I really appreciate the attentiont to detail!

 

[Bill Hart]

Hello all, Janis Ian here. While I'm always glad to hear my work being talked about,t his really saddens me. Between the Lines was an amazing album sonically, due entirely to the brilliance of the producer/engineer Brooks Arthur and his second in command, engineer Larry Alexander. We had great musicians, a great studio, and the rest is history. (By the way, it did not have anything to do with a Grammy in the classical category. It won for best engineered, and best female vocalist.)
It's unfortunate that due to the nature of our contracts, most of us have zero control over reissues like this one. I was able to remaster from original sources for several of the tracks I put on my own "Best of Janis Ian: The Autobiography Songs", but I had no control over the Boxstar release. Ditto the current Sony CD, which is a horrendous piece of trash that doesn't even provide musician credits, let alone decent sonic quality. Brooks and I have begged Sony for years to let us remaster - at my cost entirely! - and give them new artwork, but they're not interested.
I haven't listened in a while, but the remastered versions we supplied to DMG - Demon Music Group - and to Sony Japan were from "best available sources", and might be considerably better. However, they're CD's, not vinyl. If anyone in this forum would like to hear them, I'm glad to send a couple of free copies. Please email my personal address, janisianmail@earthlink.net .
Breaking Silence is somewhat the same story, but with a slightly happier ending. Morgan Creek, who own the master everywhere but Japan and Benelux (where I own it), refuse to either license it to me for a reasonable fee (or a percentage) so I can keep it alive, or put it out with the high quality it deserves. However, I did have copies of the original analog tapes, well preserved, and that it what the releases you may be able to find on CD are from - particularly the Japanese and earlier Benelux/European releases.
Funnily enough, Jeff Balding, who produced and engineered "Breaking", also did an album called Billie's Bones with me a few years ago, and I paid a great deal of money to have a beautiful vinyl editon done because the sonics were so beautiful. Sadly, we were about 5 years ahead of our time, and couldn't give the vinyl away. This afternoon, walking into an Urban Outfitters, I realized I should just have held onto it. But if you can find a copy, it's also a stunning sonic tour de force.
Thanks for listening!

Janis- Thank you for posting. It means a lot to many of us, not only as fans of your writing and performing, but for those of us (and there are many) who treasure natural, lifelike recorded sound. While we can get caught up and argue endlessly over the minutae of why a particular record or playback system sounds 'lifelike' or real, almost all of us have our eye (and ears) on the performance- we go through considerable, time, effort and expense as home listeners to capture some of joy that make it more real. Between the Lines is one of only a relative handful of records that achieves that level of sonic 'truth.' This makes listening to your songs and performance on such recordings even more of a treat. Breaking Silence is also a sonic tour de force on vinyl, at least the version I have from a number of years ago (I think it was an 'audiophile' release, which is not always a guarantee of good sonics).
You should know (if you don't already) that you have a huge number of fans in the audio community who treasure you both as an writer/artist and as some one who obviously cares a great deal about the quality of the delivery medium. For what it's worth, you will probably see an uptick in royalties on Billie's Bones at some point because, once somebody identifies a hidden jewel on vinyl, there is usually a rush to find and buy every available copy! Look forward to seeing and hearing you again soon! (And we won't ask you to debate 'analog v. digital' or 'tubes v solld state' -it is enough that you took the time to contribute here).
Best,
(one among many of your long-time fans).
bill hart

 

[MylesBAstor]

Far out and welcome Janis!

So I take it you had no input into Chad Kassem's/Analogue Products newest release of Breaking Silence. From the writeup, it certainly seems like you guys used absolutely top notch mikes, reel to reel machines and had a great group including Bill Schnee working on the mixing!

You also seem to imply that unlike most musicians, you take not only the musical but sonic quality seriously! Am I led to believe that you also take your sound quality seriously at home too?