Is this guy for real?

[rbbert]

...generational losses are real but much less than you are inferring. in fact; if I do a transfer from 1/4" to 1/2" with my 2 decks the 1/2" copy can sound better.

I have to hope something got lost in translation here?

 

[TBone]

I think some here are not giving Mark his due as far as overall knowledge is concerned. Hard to argue with a man who's developed his conclusions over the long term, w/hands on experience. You may disagree, and I have, but in the end, that's neither here nor there. And as Alan stated, we all need checks & balances (especially certain self-important reviewers) ...

I saw Bad Co on that tour up real close and the album was an excellent representation of the shows.

I'm still kicking myself for not attending a recent Deep Purple concert, and Rodgers w/Queen over the last few years. Big fan, Free, Bad Co and Queen in the day, although I only witnessed Queen live (several times). I still consider Roger Taylor as one of the most underrated Rock drummers ever, missed a great chance to hear Bad co & Free via Queen.

I'm guessing it was recorded to Pro Tools.

Speaking of Pro Tools, Toronto has a very large local music scene, so PT has become very popular with local artist. I've been given (and purchased) many of their CDs, unfortunately, they all suffer consistent sonic limitations; ie: Soundstage & dimensionality details are all but lost within a digital fog. Some have managed to produced subsequent LP's, yet you can still hear all the hallmarks of the original Pro-Tools digital master. It's a shame really, artist like Paul Riddick are producing original music worthy of much better representation. The thing is, played on systems w/ very wide bandwidth & dynamic capability, these limitations can instantly become distracting. Hard to enjoy a soundstage the size of a dolls house, especially on a system that routinely morphs the walls of my living room into something much larger. But, in reality, this is no different than the majority of poorly mastered music (any format) from popular artist, such as Bruce Springsteen. Therefore, poorly mastered music doesn't get played much on my main system, no matter how good or popular the music is ... but at the cottage, or on a boombox fishing/camping on some remote island, or even at a friends house / Bose system, the music, and not the production, becomes key, and those experiences are entirely enjoyable.

Audiophiles and their "hi-end" systems can be very hard lot to please ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So you are claiming a transfer from 1/4 to 1/2 inch improves sound over the 1/4 inch you copied? Why not copy it several times and improve it some more? This only makes sense if 1/2 inch has some coloration you find desirable. Certainly not a description of fidelity.

So how many generations with your equipment would it take for generational losses to cause the tape to 'merely' equal the digital copy of the master tape?

I said 1/4" to 1/2" can sound better. mostly that generational losses (which while very slight do exist) are less than the additional meatiness weight that 1/2" imparts to some recordings. 'sounds better' is a subjective term. I don't claim any universal improvement 1/4" to 1/2" but I would say that when dubbing Studer A-820 1/4" to Studer A-820 1/2" in my system my expectations are it will sound subjectively better mostly with the 1/2" one gen dub. I rarely do it because of the cost of 1/2" tape and the fact I already own the perfectly fine 1/4". but if someone brings me a tape to 'share' i'll likely choose 1/2". in fact; since right now I only have one 1/4" and one 1/2" machine (sob, sob) if I'm brought a 1/4" dub I can only dub to 1/2". I'm thinking of acquiring another 1/4" machine to give me the choice to dub to 1/4" from 1/4".

I use a direct out off the heads to the same outboard output electronics for both my 1/4" and 1/2" Studers; so the output electronics are identical. if I use stock output then the 1/2" deck has a trafoless output card which is slightly better sounding than the stock output of my 1/4" deck. but I'm almost 100% using the custom output electronics.

I have no idea myself about what 'many' generations might do at all; as I've never gone down that road. my guess would be that if one kept things on top level decks and tape with real time 15ips, 1/4" it might take 'many, many' generations to hear degradations dropping it to the digital copy level ( a high rez digital copy is still a fine sounding recording, particularly dsd or 2xdsd). I would guess that answer would vary based on the excellence of the dubbing chain.

maybe Bruce could comment about that as he has done so many more dubs than I have.

I'd recommend spending some time listening to 1/2" tape and then listen to any other format. it is really amazing to experience it.

 

[es347]

I said 1/4" to 1/2" can sound better. mostly that generational losses (which while very slight do exist) are less than the additional meatiness weight that 1/2" imparts to some recordings. 'sounds better' is a subjective term. I don't claim any universal improvement 1/4" to 1/2" but I would say that when dubbing Studer A-820 1/4" to Studer A-820 1/2" in my system my expectations are it will sound better mostly with the 1/2" one gen dub. I rarely do it because of the cost of 1/2" tape and the fact I already own the perfectly fine 1/4". but if someone brings me a tape to 'share' i'll likely choose 1/2". in fact; since right now I only have one 1/4" and one 1/2" machine (sob, sob) if I'm brought a 1/4" dub I can only dub to 1/2". I'm thinking of acquiring another 1/4" machine to give me the choice to dub to 1/4" from 1/4".

I use a direct out off the heads to the same outboard output electronics for both my 1/4" and 1/2" Studers; so the output electronics are identical. if I use stock output then the 1/2" deck has a trafoless output card which is slightly better sounding than the stock output of my 1/4" deck. but I'm almost 100% using the custom output electronics.

I have no idea myself about what 'many' generations might do at all; as I've never gone down that road. my guess would be that if one kept things on top level decks and tape with real time 15ips, 1/4" it might take 'many, many' generations to hear degradations dropping it to the digital copy level ( a high rez digital copy is still a fine sounding recording, particularly dsd or 2xdsd).

maybe Bruce could comment about that as he has done so many more dubs than I have.

Interesting thread that could have degraded into a food fight...well done gentlemen. I don't own a quality 15ips machine so have nothing to add but I do own a Lumin A1 network player and I must say that a quality mastered DSD comes "frighteningly" close to its vinyl counterpart. Of course that's the opinion of a tin-eared 67 year old curmudgeon..

 

[rbbert]

I said 1/4" to 1/2" can...I don't claim any universal improvement 1/4" to 1/2" but I would say that when dubbing Studer A-820 1/4" to Studer A-820 1/2" in my system my expectations are it will sound subjectively better mostly with the 1/2" one gen dub...

Which is fine, but it appears the concept of "high-fidelity" is lost. Sounding better is fine, but if the argument is (and it usually is) that open reel is more faithful to the original event then this would seem to undermine that?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Which is fine, but it appears the concept of "high-fidelity" is lost. Sounding better is fine, but if the argument is (and it usually is) that open reel is more faithful to the original event then this would seem to undermine that?

 

[TBone]

Interesting thread that could have degraded into a food fight...well done gentlemen. I don't own a quality 15ips machine so have nothing to add but I do own a Lumin A1 network player and I must say that a quality mastered DSD comes "frighteningly" close to its vinyl counterpart. Of course that's the opinion of a tin-eared 67 year old curmudgeon..

This 54'r (perhaps in boxing terms, an "old" 54) ... used to get frighten'd by a good cassette rip ... don't own tape anymore but I was recently reminded - late last year I heard a Steely Dan R2R recording that had amazing front to back stage depth, something I've rarely heard from with any form of digital playback.

That said, my Sony W66 professional 16 bit recorder replicates my vinyl in "near" all it's glory. Yeah, yeah yeah, if you want to chase audiophile ghosts ... absolute dimensionality is culled; but in terms of true instrumental impact (felt as much as heard, even at low volume) and wide dynamic expression ... virtually identical (*). I certainly don't feel like I'm missing something so musically important that it would trump my attachment/enjoyment.

If recorded well, I'm game ... no matter what reasonable format.

(*) added archival/playback bonus: LP to digital transfer offers potentially less acoustic interference/noise to stylus; importance dependent on room/system/setup.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

If recorded well, I'm game ... no matter what reasonable format.

Bingo! We have a winner!

 

[TBone]

Bingo! We have a winner!

prize; should I be expecting a WBF yoyo ...

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

prize; should I be expecting a WBF yoyo ...

Truth be told.....more than likely a commentary that some formats don't cut the mustard. Be ready to pack away your 7.5ips recordings.

 

[TBone]

Truth be told.....more than likely a commentary that some formats don't cut the mustard.

my hypocritical type saga's await ...

 

[Joe Whip]

I have known Mark now for a few years and he makes incredible recordings. In fact, his multichannel room with the 5 Revel speakers, the new Benchmark Amps and the Benchmark DAC was the best sound I heard at Axpona. One of Mark's issues with analog tape not being high rez is that it tops out at around 10 bits. He has NEVER said that I am aware of, that analog tape can't sound great. Quite the contrary. He does have strong opinions, many of which I happen to share about PCM, DSD and the like.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Truth be told.....more than likely a commentary that some formats don't cut the mustard. Be ready to pack away your 7.5ips recordings.

where did anyone here say that?????

I don't have cassette tapes and currently don't have 3 3/4 ips or 7 1/2 ips tapes. but both formats can sound wonderful. but I have all the rest and enjoy them all.

MP3 cuts the mustard quite nicely in my car, or in other situations. even in my room it can be just fine.

the reaction here is Mark saying exactly that. he dismisses formats and people indiscriminately.

ranking formats and formats not cutting the mustard are different thought processes. having preferences is always part of things.

 

[TBone]

MP3 cuts the mustard quite nicely in my car, or in other situations. even in my room it can be just fine.

Gulp, line drawn @16/44, the remaining audiophile snob within doesn't register MP3 as a "reasonable" audiophile format, in any circumstance.

Hell, even my personal music device (the superb sounding Wolfson based Samsung Galaxy3) includes only 16/44 24/96 bit wavs.

 

[TBone]

he dismisses formats and people indiscriminately.

Next PF meeting, say hi to Teresa.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Gulp, line drawn @16/44, the remaining audiophile snob within doesn't register MP3 as a "reasonable" audiophile format, in any circumstance.

Hell, even my personal music device (the superb sounding Wolfson based Samsung Galaxy3) includes only 16/44 24/96 bit wavs.

when my wife and I are driving along listening to XM in the demo we can enjoy the MP3 just fine. if i'm driving in my S-2000 with the top down who cares the format. music is music. I can be moved many times just by the memories and feelings it triggers.

yes; I always appreciate better sound but it's besides the point sometimes.

 

[TBone]

when my wife and I are driving along listening to XM in the demo we can enjoy the MP3 just fine. if i'm driving in my S-2000 with the top down who cares the format. music is music. I can be moved many times just by the memories and feelings it triggers.

yes; I always appreciate better sound but it's besides the point sometimes.

Yep, circumstances & perspectives abound; defining that personal line between music & noise, well, perhaps silence is golden ... besides, it's very difficult trying to retro-fit a turntable or R2R within any vehicle ... although I'm certain some VW bus owner has ...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You weren't there Tim, so it's pure speculation on your part what experts presented as opinion.

I never said a thing about data or measurements. You're out of touch Tim. Please read the thread.

My response was not based on speculation, it was based on what was reported at the top of this thread. So perhaps I'm out of touch with what hasn't been said here? A strong possibility.

Tim

 

[esldude]

I said 1/4" to 1/2" can sound better. mostly that generational losses (which while very slight do exist) are less than the additional meatiness weight that 1/2" imparts to some recordings. 'sounds better' is a subjective term. I don't claim any universal improvement 1/4" to 1/2" but I would say that when dubbing Studer A-820 1/4" to Studer A-820 1/2" in my system my expectations are it will sound subjectively better mostly with the 1/2" one gen dub. I rarely do it because of the cost of 1/2" tape and the fact I already own the perfectly fine 1/4". but if someone brings me a tape to 'share' i'll likely choose 1/2". in fact; since right now I only have one 1/4" and one 1/2" machine (sob, sob) if I'm brought a 1/4" dub I can only dub to 1/2". I'm thinking of acquiring another 1/4" machine to give me the choice to dub to 1/4" from 1/4".

I use a direct out off the heads to the same outboard output electronics for both my 1/4" and 1/2" Studers; so the output electronics are identical. if I use stock output then the 1/2" deck has a trafoless output card which is slightly better sounding than the stock output of my 1/4" deck. but I'm almost 100% using the custom output electronics.

I have no idea myself about what 'many' generations might do at all; as I've never gone down that road. my guess would be that if one kept things on top level decks and tape with real time 15ips, 1/4" it might take 'many, many' generations to hear degradations dropping it to the digital copy level ( a high rez digital copy is still a fine sounding recording, particularly dsd or 2xdsd). I would guess that answer would vary based on the excellence of the dubbing chain.

maybe Bruce could comment about that as he has done so many more dubs than I have.

I'd recommend spending some time listening to 1/2" tape and then listen to any other format. it is really amazing to experience it.

Well, then you agree with the fellow. When something imparts a signature sound, even a subjectively pleasing one it isn't high fidelity.

Reminds me of an early demo CD that had a 100th generation digital copy. 100 loops of AD/DA. It sounded a bit less good, and everyone of my audiophile friends said, "see digital isn't perfect" with the exception of one. The exception an R2R aficionado. With a big smile on his face he commented, "man, can you imagine what 100 generations of reel tape would sound like. You might not be able to tell what the music was."

I don't doubt 1/2 inch reel is a fabulous format. The thing that is odd is how many seem to dismiss an even more fabulous format in the form of 96/24 PCM on pro equipment. That such a format could be distributed with ease across the known world is icing on the cake. Paraphrasing Pink Floyd, some of you won't have your pudding until you have your meat. With good PCM digital we can get the pudding without the meat.

 

[amirm]

when my wife and I are driving along listening to XM in the demo we can enjoy the MP3 just fine.

OK, tables are turned on this one . I can't listen to XM radio. The compression artifacts are so strong that it sounds like someone constantly scratching nails on a blackboard to me. Shame because I like the content but the artifacts are overwhelming. Not quite the same with MP3 but I encode in VBR WMA whenever I can (with peaks well into hundreds of kbits/sec) and can tell the difference with lower fidelity lossy compression although clearly not as bothersome as in the home.

Maybe some of this is a function of noise level and performance in said car. My wife has a new MDX. I will have to go and listen there to see how it ranks as I suspect you are talking about a Honda product there, yes?

yes; I always appreciate better sound but it's besides the point sometimes.

So why be in pain over PCM copy of a tape versus a second copy?