Is there a Michael Fremer of CD transports? If no, DEAR GOD PLEASE SEND US ONE!!!!

[Pb Blimp]

Balanced power can mean many different things according to implementations, electrical codes and systems. In theory is does not bring anything good to your system, but in some cases some implementations seem to bring real improvements in sound quality.

Your comments are kinda oblique. Focusing only on the Equitech model, do you not subscribe to common mode rejection in power transmission as a theoretical matter or are you addressing something more specific as to implementation like imperfect phase alignment between legs? If it is the former can you explain why? If the later can you be more specific as to your specific concern?

 

[microstrip]

Your comments are kinda oblique. Focusing only on the Equitech model, do you not subscribe to common mode rejection in power transmission as a theoretical matter or are you addressing something more specific as to implementation like imperfect phase alignment between legs? If it is the former can you explain why? If the later can you be more specific as to your specific concern?

Two immediate issues - some of us live in Europe, others in US. Mains systems are very different in these zones. Considering the output - the only common zone of it is the length of cable between the balancing transformer and our systems - all other noise is differential and will not be rejected.

You can have three variations of balanced power - balanced input and balanced output, unbalanced input and balanced output, balanced input and unbalanced output. What do you want to address?

And yes, generic comments are almost always oblique. But I am always happy to help to make them parallel.

 

[NorthStar]

Aside from sentimental value, there is absolutely no need for physical media anymore, at last when it comes to digital reproduction. Roon+Tidal provide you with flexibility and richness of both content and context. No need to actually go out and buy the disks when you can almost instantly find everything you need with an iPad.

Also, as the OP mentioned Dave+Blu2 give you an unbelievable sound which also probably makes vinyl obsolete as well, aside from is sentimental value of course.

Too bad about your last comment on vinyl, I was interested in what you had to say up until that point

Lol, I just had a pleasant laugh....a musical smile.

 

[NorthStar]

Sure thing, but I will say that at let in the looks department, a vinyl rig always beats digital.

This is my favorite example. Goldnote Mediterraneo, a stunning beauty!

View attachment 38380

That is a sweet looking TT. She is charming, very.

 

[Pb Blimp]

You can have three variations of balanced power - balanced input and balanced output, unbalanced input and balanced output, balanced input and unbalanced output. What do you want to address?

As I said, the Equitech definition-- balanced power between the transformer and the system is that which I believe is being discussed as it impacts SQ in audio systems.

Considering the output - the only common zone of it is the length of cable between the balancing transformer and our systems - all other noise is differential and will not be rejected.

By definition a balanced power system uses a (isolation) transformer to perform the balancing which also isolates all upstream differential noise. So of course the only relevant zone for common mode rejection is between the transformer and the system. As such I am confused; are you saying that balanced power is not effective because it only works in the area in which it was designed to work?

 

[NorthStar]

Heh, well people here seem to be having good experiences with it. But, with a slight chance of being off topic, I have to ask. Has anyone had any experience with Stromtank?

https://www.paragonsns.com/product/stromtank-s-2500/

It seems to be a giant battery and looks amazing so I was wondering whether anyone tried it. I'd actually want to see a PS Audio vs Symetrica vs Stromtank review or something.

It's a cool link. Somehow though I don't seem to be able to scroll down @ the bottom of the pages. Anyone else?

 

[audio.bill]

It's a cool link. Somehow though I don't seem to be able to scroll down @ the bottom of the pages. Anyone else?

No problem scrolling to the bottom of the pages with Firefox on a PC.

 

[NorthStar]

No problem scrolling to the bottom of the pages with Firefox on a PC.

Thanks Bill. I'm using a tablet and Chrome; I can't get to the bottom of pages, they are all cut down.
It is very very strange; it is the first time ever, as far as I can remember, that I'm experiencing this.
For example, I can't see all the specs, it won't allow me to scroll down.
And the same with all the other sections of the site from all pages. I keep trying but to no available.
___

I can't get any lower to read all the specs, this is as far I can get:

 

[DaveC]

As I said, the Equitech definition-- balanced power between the transformer and the system is that which I believe is being discussed as it impacts SQ in audio systems.



By definition a balanced power system uses a (isolation) transformer to perform the balancing which also isolates all upstream differential noise. So of course the only relevant zone for common mode rejection is between the transformer and the system. As such I am confused; are you saying that balanced power is not effective because it only works in the area in which it was designed to work?

It doesn't really isolate upstream differential noise, and ime it's attenuation is not enough, a BPT system still needs a good EMI/RFI filter. Using isolation trafos to attenuate noise is using the wrong tool for the job.

A few years ago at RMAF an Equitech did little to nothing to solve some major AC noise issues while one of my SurgeX devices worked, and the room went on to win TAS Best of Show award in the cost no object category.

Anyways, real world results of using balanced power make it worthwhile but measured results show CMNR about half of calculated ideal and it's not nearly as important as EMI/RFI filtering.

 

[microstrip]

As I said, the Equitech definition-- balanced power between the transformer and the system is that which I believe is being discussed as it impacts SQ in audio systems.

I asked several technical questions in clear words to try to make the subject clear - you go one mixing manufacturer vague definitions, sorry I can not be of help.

By definition a balanced power system uses a (isolation) transformer to perform the balancing which also isolates all upstream differential noise. So of course the only relevant zone for common mode rejection is between the transformer and the system. As such I am confused; are you saying that balanced power is not effective because it only works in the area in which it was designed to work?

No, it does not isolate ALL upstream differential noise. Only reduces part of it.

In some sense yes to the last question. If balanced power only reduces the noise picked by power wires between the transformer and your system, there are better ways of dealing with it.

IMHO there are some real advantages in balanced power output, not in noise rejection, but in leakage currents. However they depend on the equipment being connected, and how this equipment reacts to them. Each case is a case.

 

[Pb Blimp]

In some sense yes to the last question. If balanced power only reduces the noise picked by power wires between the transformer and your system, there are better ways of dealing with it.

Yes, that is why I do not own an Equitech product but the fact that there are better ways is not the point. You indicated the following:

In theory is does not bring anything good to your system, but in some cases some implementations seem to bring real improvements in sound quality.

My only point was that, as I believe you are now acknowledging, this statement is not consistent with the facts as common noise rejection in theory and reality is indeed a good thing for your system.

 

[sbo6]

WRT transport vs. server it's primarily about cost, synergy and I/O implementation/quality. For years no PC could match my Esoteric CD/SACD transport. Until I upgraded the PC to a Femto clocked USB card and LPSU (along with other server optimizations). After further moving to an Aqua DAC, a transport for me, is mostly useless. Add Tidal Masters and my arse is planted all night (except to get up for a good drink). In the end it was more about cost than anything; in general the more you pay the more you get.

WRT vinyl, I get the attraction, mostly nostalgia, habit and yes, the sound. However in today's digital climate $ for $ digital wins unless you're talking $20K+. And yes, there are some exceptions but not many. And digital will continue to outpace vinyl $ for $ as its in its infancy. Vinyl had 100 years; imagine where digital will be in 2082!

edit: Almost forgot, it would be great if there was a Fremer for digital sans foul language and nasty replies to comments..

 

[audio.bill]

Thanks Bill. I'm using a tablet and Chrome; I can't get to the bottom of pages, they are all cut down.
It is very very strange; it is the first time ever, as far as I can remember, that I'm experiencing this.
For example, I can't see all the specs, it won't allow me to scroll down.
And the same with all the other sections of the site from all pages. I keep trying but to no available.

I'd suggest trying a different browser on your tablet; many sites' HTML coding exhibit formatting inconsistencies between browsers.

 

[microstrip]

(...) My only point was that, as I believe you are now acknowledging, this statement is not consistent with the facts as common noise rejection in theory and reality is indeed a good thing for your system.

If there is no significant common mode noise to reject it is not a good thing ... Or a bad thing ... Play with semantics as you wish.

 

[Pb Blimp]

If there is no significant common mode noise to reject it is not a good thing ... Or a bad thing ... Play with semantics as you wish.

Ahhh so we are getting somewhere. Your position is not that there "are better ways of dealing with the common noise" on AC lines as you stated first, but rather that there exists no common noise to be "dealt with" by the "better ways" you referenced. Well that at least that makes sense: a product designed to remove something is of no consequence if that thing does not exist. That said, in my world common mode noise in AC systems is well.......common.

 

[microstrip]

Ahhh so we are getting somewhere. Your position is not that there "are better ways of dealing with the common noise" on AC lines as you stated first, but rather that there exists no common noise to be "dealt with" by the "better ways" you referenced. Well that at least that makes sense: a product designed to remove something is of no consequence if that thing does not exist. That said, in my world common mode noise in AC systems is well.......common.

It would be nice if you would say something relevant other than misinterpretations of small sections of what I wrote. Sorry, I am out.

 

[NorthStar]

I'd suggest trying a different browser on your tablet; many sites' HTML coding exhibit formatting inconsistencies between browsers.

Google Chrome used to be the best and most secure web browser. It is no more. They can't protect their clients of uploading viruses that are super nasty from Google Play store newest applications.

* It is the only site where I cannot scroll down, so it's not a really big deal.
___

I've just read this: http://ajournalofmusicalthings.com/...tinues-rocket-upwards-sunrise-records-effect/

...And this: http://www.nme.com/news/music/led-z...e-album-including-first-vinyl-release-2227148

 

[caesar]

See, your post made me realize something. This hobby isn't about reason. Music (and audio) is about passion. So reason rarely comes into play. That's why it's hard to convince someone to drop a new medium, while they're passionate about other, or to drop their passion in favor of something else that, granted, might be more practical or even sound better.

In the end, emotions win.

Amen! Yet there are different kinds of passion. There's passion, and there's PASSION! Breaking passion down a bit, there are majority of audiophiles who have been hearing about the "wonders of computer audio" in the last 5-10 years. And as we all know, unfortunately, audiophiles are frequently unhappy with their sound and also are not self-confident enough in their ability to pick out gear....

In moments of confusion, people look to friends, experts, and check out what the majority is doing. So they talk to their friends and search the web for amateur and professional reviews, and any type of product feedback. The frequent go to point is the computer audiophile site. But the guy who runs it, I'm sure, knows a ton about computers and audio sounds, but judges every DAC, cable, and component by how much detail (and frequently very analytical detail!) it let's through - instead of how the gear conveys tone, dynamics, and human emotions. No wonder the geek thinks Berk Ref is the best DAC in the world, while the majority would much prefer the $2K Chord Hugo to the Berk DAC.

So our gullible audiophile friend, still confused as hell, reaches to an "expert", "worthless to the fans" robert harley. This guy has worked really hard to earn his nickname! He had the Wilson Alexandria 2 and Magico q7 in the same room and never compared them. Ditto for dCS vivaldi and berkeley ref.

In his reviews, he called the latter products the "best" (to help the confused, gullible audiophiles make the decision). And in his reviews he used a bunch of meaningless audiophile words, like "cleanest bass", "pinpoint imaging", "large soundstage", etc. In reality, of course, those components are not BEST, but just appeal to his analytical tastes.

How's worthless harley any different than the famous self-loathing audiophile, Ethan Winer, writing about a $10 CD player that he found in a garbage dumpster, yet that measures perfectly? To Winer, that $10 cd player will do all the things perfectly: soundstage, imaging, bass, etc. Without gear comparisons, worthless harley just elevates his favorite products over dozens of others that are not praised as much, or at all, which gives his favorite products an advantage in the marketplace... And as far as digital audio goes, Harley hates the sound of CD transports because they have less detail than the computer audio stuff he likes ...

So our audiophile friend who lacks PASSION and curiosity doesn't even try a 10 year old reference Esoteric CD transport that will beat the crap out of the lumins, aurinders, naims, etc., and continues the cycle of unhappiness...

By the way, I have nothing against streaming! Tidal is great. Some high res files are great (but you never know what you will get). And vinyl ripped to 192/24 high res is my favorite format at this point.

But ripping CDs instead of playing CDs without a CD transport is a travesty for many who would trade more humanness and emotion for detail retrieval.

 

[asiufy]

caesar,

I'm sure you're able to write ONE POST without mentioning Harley, Valin, etc. I just haven't seen one yet, but I'm sure you're capable...


cheers,
alex

 

[spiritofmusic]

Cesar, great great post.
Made me smile a lot.
You don’t have to convince me.
I remain v happy I found a cdp 5 years ago that holds its head up well against my tt.
I never regret using it.
I never get to the point that I decide to go streaming as well.
Why would I? My cdp and tt truly excel.