Is it unwise to buy a state of the art CD player at this time?

Well I just saw Billy Joel live at Wembley last weekend and the whole stadium was an echo chamber. I wouldn't want to replicate that! Pretty dreadful, really.

Massive Attack live the weekend before in Bristol in an open air gig had incredible SQ for a live concert, on the other hand.

Gigs without amplification and PA speakers are a different story.
 
Personally it seems very silly to me that we would want to continue to transmit digital data to consumers by stamping plastics and spinning it with motors and such. All in such a low capacity medium. The format needs to be shot in the head, and shot good. :D

I would disagree. Lest we not forget CD's are a medium of storage in addition to the capabilities of playback. When the popularity of a label or artist dies so will its connection to the download or purchase option.

A number of CD's in my collection (especially imports) are not readily available for download now and I doubt they ever will be. CD's will still be relevant and should still be relevant to protect us from proprietary codecs and the choice of the label to determine what we should be listening to.
 
Yep. One of the very biggest problems with digital and it has been one of the easiest ways to distinguish 16 bit as well - even when noise shaped using the most modern, sophisticated algorithms. I've always called this issue the "digital head cold" effect myself, because it has a similar effect on the music as having a bad head cold has when listening to live music. Mind you (and we are getting OT here), but every time I pass a live musician performing in the street - even if they are an incompetent, tuneless ear-sore attempting to strum a $200 guitar, I have to keep asking myself have we really solved that problem. And I have to day we still haven't - not to my ears. We have only mitigated it. There is still something about the sheer immediacy, effortlessness and perfect, unforced timing and delivery of an actual live performance that eludes even the very best audio reproduction technology even today, no matter whether it is analogue or digital. State of the art equipment driving state of the art electrostatics might go a very long way, but going a long way isn't the same as solving something. I think the "blame" can equally be shared by recording equipment including microphones, the people who make those recordings as well as the reproduction chain at our end. Nothing is blameless in that whole chain in my view.

Ok, let me clarify, also in view of other responses to your post. I was not comparing the best digital rhythm & timing to live music, but to what great analog playback has to offer. The comparison digital/analog on this issue has been a considerable frustration for a long time. Not anymore.

I think that now digital rhythm & timing at its best can compete with great vinyl playback. While my digital playback has its faults and certainly isn't SOTA, in this area I think it is outstanding. It swings and rocks just like great vinyl. And yes, on 16 bit CD playback.

But I have had four CD playback systems before my current one that were deficient in this respect.
 
Thank you everyone for the feedback on this thread. For me it seems to come down to how do I maximize my enjoyment from my system? Central to this is listening to more music and spending less time and energy on what equipment I have and how to tweak out the extra couple percent.

During the past 50+ years I have cycled back and forth between focusing on the music and the equipment. I have always eventually come to the same conclusion, the music is much more important than the system. I have heard a number of very simple inexpensive systems recently that produce almost as much joy for me as my most recent elaborate system. My repeated shifting from listening to music back to what is best theoretically has probably occurred because I have many stresses in my daily life and the pursuit of the best system I can manage has been such a powerful diversion from the stresses of my daily life, that I drift into “acquisition mode” and searching for audio nirvana, only to burn out on buying and obsessing another time, not mention missing listening to music.

So now that I have gone through this cycle once again and am trying to find the proper balance, hopefully for the last time, it seems that the core question is, is streaming digital sound "good enough" for my digital listening or do I try to make my current CD library sound as good as possible and continue to buy CD’s instead of shifting to streaming and vinyl. SACD's are a non-issue for me because I have none and do not plan to buy any even though they can sound incredible. Besides, if I do want some SACD's I can play them on the Oppo BDP 103 connected to an excellent DAC like my Meitner if I buy the Spectral SDR 4000SV, to a tube DAC if do not buy the Spectral.

Unfortunately, my hearing is not what is used to be and has declined considerably since I started my buying spree during the past several years. During the past 6 months, when I started my shift back to Spectral SV products, my hearing has declined so much that at times I cannot hear the left channel, even with the balance is totally to the left. This hearing problem is forcing me to evaluate what is “reasonable” for me to expect at this time in my life from my audio system.

I think that I am quite a seasoned and educated listener, who has repeatedly fallen prey to “audiophilitis” and should go back to basics instead of pursuit of the ideal theoretical system. My recent major rebuild of my analog section has once again reminded that I need a "tube" in my digital signal path because somehow I moved away from what I have valued for years, the analog sound from records and the mixture of SS and tubes. The Spectral SV circuitry is amazing and I am thrilled to have it in both my Spectral DMC 30SV preamp and the Spectral DMC 300RS power amp, but I love, colored or not, the slight tube/analog influence that I had to sacrifice when I sold my tube preamp because it was not compatible with the Spectral DMC 300RS. While adding the Spectral SDR 4000SV would make a full SV signal path from the CD to speaker that would undoubtedly be incredible with the lowest possible noise floor, I fear that I would miss the slight influence of having some tubes in the digital signal path.

The Spectral SDR 4000SV is an incredible piece, possibly the best CD player on the market. I understand that the purist approach at Spectral and with Keith Johnson in particular necessitated designing only for Red Book and that having digital inputs would take away from the design and performance. I just do not want to need two high quality DAC’s to cover my total digital needs. Therefore, in my post-divorce retirement depleted life I will probably go with a combination of improving my core digital signal path by adding a "tube" so that I can get the best of SS (Spectral SV topology) and a bit of the sweetness that I love with tubes. For this reason and my hearing problems, the Spectral SDR 4000SV is a no go for me, although a part of me will always regret this decision.

So now the question is where to put the tubes in the digital chain. It seems that I have only two choices for a reasonable tube addition, a Lampizator or Ayon DAC. I am totally confused about which way to go, but feel a fair amount of internal resistance to going with a Lampizator because I just do not think that the company has found its stride yet and I do not want to deal with tweaking and continually upgrading any more. The only time I have heard a Lampie was quite good, but I was not so overwhelmed that I am willing to continually shift as the product advances. Whereas, the only time I have heard an Ayon product, the Spirit III amp I was so impressed that it burned a spot in my mind.

I have once again made the most basic mistake in audio and gotten too into the equipment and technology and drifted away from the music. I think that this mistake and the combination my current hearing problems this is why I have not been listening as much lately. I should probably just buy an Ayon DAC and try to decide if the Stealth DAC is good enough at $8100 or should I spend an extra $1700 and buy the Stratos, which has a few more features, but is mostly a better version with all hand-picked and matched parts. The other question is should I just keep the Oppo BDP 103 or spend and additional $4700 and buy the tube equipped Ayon CD-T transport? Our should I buy an Ayon CD-3SX (essentially a Stealth DAC and CD-T transport in a player) for $8500, bank the money and be happy with just having "excellent" and not the best?

Probably what I should do is put the Meinter DAC up for sale and see what I get and then decide on the tube CD player, DAC and transport front, although I think that I will probably go with the Ayon Stratos and possibly the $4,500 tubed Ayon CD-T transport because the extra $1700 for their best DAC is not that big a deal and I want to stop buying equipment, listen and focus on increasing my joy from music. The question now is, will my residual tweaky needs will lead me to buy the better DAC transport, although at this time I do not know how much better. Fortunately, USA Tubes a premier Ayon dealer, has a 30 day money back guarantee on all Ayon products

Once again, I would love and value any suggestions.
 
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As long as I can get any music that I want from Amazon on CD, which is the case, someone must have forgotten to tell CD that it's dead. ;)

Manipulating statistics anyone can prove anything ... IMHO, when the main subject of the post is the acquisition of a SOTA CD player by a WBF member the most important point in not what the general population or technofiles buy or will buy - it is what mature audiophiles and music lovers, with large experience, and as far as I can guess not anymore on their teens ;), feel about the subject and why.
 
Just a couple of points - on Saturday, I visited someone who has Spectral DMA 360 and Spectral 30SS pre into Sasha 1 with Esoteric K01X. I put the Lampi GG inside and immediately, IMO, the harmonics and decay were much more realy, soundstage and air was more. And no noise.

As for tweaking, that is the audiophile's choice. It is like a TT, you can play around with cartridges, VTA, etc forever, or you can set it up and just stream. A Big 7 with one set of tubes (e.g. PX4), will never need to be tweaked and will be sufficient for me over all other digital. The rest of what I do is for OCD fun.

If you want to get caught in the wave of upgrading from DSD 64 to 128 to 256 to 1024, or to stay out of it, the choice is yours and can happen with any digital. At least Lampi does not charge 20k for upgrades

By the way, the Feickert TT was much more superior to the spectral DC 4000 at Munich. Spectral is transparent, dynamic, clean, resolution is high. Valve harmonics is something it needs, all IMO. I heard the Spectral CD player again into all spectral and all VTL gear going into Alexandria XLF in NY.

20160910_123911.jpg
 
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There is another person in the UK who has bought Rich Murry's Apogee Divas (he has been a long term older Duetta owner), has Spectral 360 witha Kondo M77 preamp.

I haven't heard his new Divas Spectral system yet because he is setting it up. SME TT. He moved from Ayon CD player to the older Kondo dac (made in 2000) which he feeds with the CEC transport
 
(...) So now the question is where to put the tubes in the digital chain. It seems that I have only two choices for a reasonable tube addition, a Lampizator or Ayon DAC. I am totally confused about which way to go, but feel a fair amount of internal resistance to going with a Lampizator because I just do not think that the company has found its stride yet and I do not want to deal with tweaking and continually upgrading any more. The only time I have heard a Lampie was quite good, but I was not so overwhelmed that I am willing to continually shift as the product advances. Whereas, the only time I have heard an Ayon product, the Spirit III amp I was so impressed that it burned a spot in my mind. (...)

Matching tube CD players or DACs with SS is not an easy job. Most of the time I found that tubed CD players or DACs sounded better in tubed systems. Considering the specificity of the Spectral preamplifier I would look for a tubed DAC having an output coupling transformer. IMHO it is one of the reasons of the success of the Metronome tubed DACs used in balanced mode with solid state systems. DIY people often use Lundhal transformers in their DAC output stages. Unfortunately I am not remembering now any model using such configuration - but I have seen them!
 
1. Start ripping and stop spinning.....

2. While the dCS Rossini sounds great, the v2 version of the Vivaldi is in a different league.

3. Waiting for any Spectral is a nightmare. Is the agony and speculation really worth it?

4. And you'd let the ability to play SACD determine any part of your decision? Really?
 
1. Start ripping and stop spinning..... (...)

Do you find that the redbook file sounds as good as the CD spinning in the Vivaldi V2 stack? :confused:
 
Thank you everyone for the feedback on this thread. For me it seems to come down to how do I maximize my enjoyment from my system? Central to this is listening to more music and spending less time and energy on what equipment I have and how to tweak out the extra couple percent.
I can appreciate your dilemma! Obviously, I have very different take on the audio game from most people, because I'm happy to explore all sorts of subtle tweaks, and spend endless time fine tuning them - this is not for most folk, who just want to acquire a competent solution, and be done with it! Unfortunately, most systems in raw form don't cut it, and I don't have easy answers for solving this - a system has to be good enough so that at no time is one aware of it just being a contrivance that is trying to present a musical event faithfully; if you can hear misbehaviour then you'll start feeling itchy again ...

I do know there's a 'magic' barrier that can be got over, when the equipment disappears, always, and only the music is present - the way to get there will vary per person, and how motivated one is :(.
 
Just a couple of points - on Saturday, I visited someone who has Spectral DMA 400 and Spectra pre into Sasha 1 with Esoteric K01X. I put the Lampi GG inside and immediately, IMO, the harmonics and decay were much more realy, soundstage and air was more. And no noise.

As for tweaking, that is the audiophile's choice. It is like a TT, you can play around with cartridges, VTA, etc forever, or you can set it up and just stream. A Big 7 with one set of tubes (e.g. PX4), will never need to be tweaked and will be sufficient for me over all other digital. The rest of what I do is for OCD fun.

If you want to get caught in the wave of upgrading from DSD 64 to 128 to 256 to 1024, or to stay out of it, the choice is yours and can happen with any digital. At least Lampi does not charge 20k for upgrades

By the way, the Feickert TT was much more superior to the spectral DC 4000 at Munich. Spectral is transparent, dynamic, clean, resolution is high. Valve harmonics is something it needs, all IMO. I heard the Spectral CD player again into all spectral and all VTL gear going into Alexandria XLF in NY.

View attachment 28927

Just a small correction - the amps you are showing are the older DMA-360s, and the preamp is the older 30SS
 
Do you find that the redbook file sounds as good as the CD spinning in the Vivaldi V2 stack? :confused:

Custodian replaced his Scarlatti CD player because he prefers Aurender S10 (which he is now upgrading to W20) into his Vivaldi dac.
 
Thank you everyone for the feedback on this thread. For me it seems to come down to how do I maximize my enjoyment from my system? Central to this is listening to more music and spending less time and energy on what equipment I have and how to tweak out the extra couple percent.

During the past 50+ years I have cycled back and forth between focusing on the music and the equipment. I have always eventually come to the same conclusion, the music is much more important than the system. I have heard a number of very simple inexpensive systems recently that produce almost as much joy for me as my most recent elaborate system. My repeated shifting from listening to music back to what is best theoretically has probably occurred because I have many stresses in my daily life and the pursuit of the best system I can manage has been such a powerful diversion from the stresses of my daily life, that I drift into “acquisition mode” and searching for audio nirvana, only to burn out on buying and obsessing another time, not mention missing listening to music.

So now that I have gone through this cycle once again and am trying to find the proper balance, hopefully for the last time, it seems that the core question is, is streaming digital sound "good enough" for my digital listening or do I try to make my current CD library sound as good as possible and continue to buy CD’s instead of shifting to streaming and vinyl. SACD's are a non-issue for me because I have none and do not plan to buy any even though they can sound incredible. Besides, if I do want some SACD's I can play them on the Oppo BDP 103 connected to an excellent DAC like my Meitner if I buy the Spectral SDR 4000SV, to a tube DAC if do not buy the Spectral.

Unfortunately, my hearing is not what is used to be and has declined considerably since I started my buying spree during the past several years. During the past 6 months, when I started my shift back to Spectral SV products, my hearing has declined so much that at times I cannot hear the left channel, even with the balance is totally to the left. This hearing problem is forcing me to evaluate what is “reasonable” for me to expect at this time in my life from my audio system.

I think that I am quite a seasoned and educated listener, who has repeatedly fallen prey to “audiophilitis” and should go back to basics instead of pursuit of the ideal theoretical system. My recent major rebuild of my analog section has once again reminded that I need a "tube" in my digital signal path because somehow I moved away from what I have valued for years, the analog sound from records and the mixture of SS and tubes. The Spectral SV circuitry is amazing and I am thrilled to have it in both my Spectral DMC 30SV preamp and the Spectral DMC 300RS power amp, but I love, colored or not, the slight tube/analog influence that I had to sacrifice when I sold my tube preamp because it was not compatible with the Spectral DMC 300RS. While adding the Spectral SDR 4000SV would make a full SV signal path from the CD to speaker that would undoubtedly be incredible with the lowest possible noise floor, I fear that I would miss the slight influence of having some tubes in the digital signal path.

The Spectral SDR 4000SV is an incredible piece, possibly the best CD player on the market. I understand that the purist approach at Spectral and with Keith Johnson in particular necessitated designing only for Red Book and that having digital inputs would take away from the design and performance. I just do not want to need two high quality DAC’s to cover my total digital needs. Therefore, in my post-divorce retirement depleted life I will probably go with a combination of improving my core digital signal path by adding a "tube" so that I can get the best of SS (Spectral SV topology) and a bit of the sweetness that I love with tubes. For this reason and my hearing problems, the Spectral SDR 4000SV is a no go for me, although a part of me will always regret this decision.

So now the question is where to put the tubes in the digital chain. It seems that I have only two choices for a reasonable tube addition, a Lampizator or Ayon DAC. I am totally confused about which way to go, but feel a fair amount of internal resistance to going with a Lampizator because I just do not think that the company has found its stride yet and I do not want to deal with tweaking and continually upgrading any more. The only time I have heard a Lampie was quite good, but I was not so overwhelmed that I am willing to continually shift as the product advances. Whereas, the only time I have heard an Ayon product, the Spirit III amp I was so impressed that it burned a spot in my mind.

I have once again made the most basic mistake in audio and gotten too into the equipment and technology and drifted away from the music. I think that this mistake and the combination my current hearing problems this is why I have not been listening as much lately. I should probably just buy an Ayon DAC and try to decide if the Stealth DAC is good enough at $8100 or should I spend an extra $1700 and buy the Stratos, which has a few more features, but is mostly a better version with all hand-picked and matched parts. The other question is should I just keep the Oppo BDP 103 or spend and additional $4700 and buy the tube equipped Ayon CD-T transport? Our should I buy an Ayon CD-3SX (essentially a Stealth DAC and CD-T transport in a player) for $8500, bank the money and be happy with just having "excellent" and not the best?

Probably what I should do is put the Meinter DAC up for sale and see what I get and then decide on the tube CD player, DAC and transport front, although I think that I will probably go with the Ayon Stratos and possibly the $4,500 tubed Ayon CD-T transport because the extra $1700 for their best DAC is not that big a deal and I want to stop buying equipment, listen and focus on increasing my joy from music. The question now is, will my residual tweaky needs will lead me to buy the better DAC transport, although at this time I do not know how much better. Fortunately, USA Tubes a premier Ayon dealer, has a 30 day money back guarantee on all Ayon products

Once again, I would love and value any suggestions.

Really sorry to hear about your hearing loss, Russ. You have a huge dilemma, and yes, I also think you will regret your decision to abandon the 4000SV. Their DAC is not far off, if that helps, and if your hearing condition means this is your last chance to hear the best CD sound, think about your decision again.
 
Here's another DAC to add to your list - I was just reading Myles's review of the Magico M3 and he says:

First, the MSB Select II DAC really impressed me when playing back double DSD files. Perhaps one of, if not the best digital front ends that I've heard to date (certainly better than the Pacific Microsonics/Baetis Music Server combo that impressed me last summer at Magicos).

See https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/the-audio-vault/loudspeakers/27298-the-magico-m3-speaker-thread?p=27436#post27436

I've heard the Pacific Microsonics, and that statement says a LOT
 
Really sorry to hear about your hearing loss, Russ.

Yes, me too.

As for Ayon digital: if you were impressed, Russ, with an Ayon amp that does not mean that the company would be equally good at digital. They might be, but these are two different skill sets. I would definitely want to audition the unit that you are interested in before buying.

Having said that, yes Ayon digital has gotten great reviews. How much that means, I don't know.
 
Yes, me too.

As for Ayon digital: if you were impressed, Russ, with an Ayon amp that does not mean that the company would be equally good at digital. They might be, but these are two different skill sets. I would definitely want to audition the unit that you are interested in before buying.

Having said that, yes Ayon digital has gotten great reviews. How much that means, I don't know.

Personally, have an Ayon Orthos KT 150 amp in my sight - 300w triode, 400 pentode. recommended by Joel, among others. FYI, this does not mean anything for digital nor for their smaller amps. A guy who owned both Jadis and Ayon at lower wattage wholeheartedly recommended Jadis for more finesse. But in the high powered amps, this seems to have exceptional reviews, and competition like VAC 450 is much more expensive.
 
Just a small correction - the amps you are showing are the older DMA-360s, and the preamp is the older 30SS

Thanks for correcting
 
Custodian replaced his Scarlatti CD player because he prefers Aurender S10 (which he is now upgrading to W20) into his Vivaldi dac.

I am addressing the full Vivaldi stack - not hybrids - but even so my question is why did he do it and what were the sound differences?
 
I am addressing the full Vivaldi stack - not hybrids - but even so my question is why did he do it and what were the sound differences?

You can PM him. Custodian.
 

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