Is it the amps, the speakers...or the amps-speakers synergy?

[sujay]

I have the D premier.. would consider another for a 500 system , Im not going to upgrade the d prem to a 250 as its eu 4000 and i wont gain much...
I use a pure sine wave 5kva inverter along with a 6 x 200ah deep cycle battery system to power my room , totally silent , pristine power ...cost circa $1700.. its always in line , ie I always have clean power ... the system resides in my garage

Thanks. I am quite keen to set up a silent, clean, independent power back up myself when I move into my own place. I do feel that will up the ante substantially. Any ideas how to go about it and the kind of space it requires? Maybe I should PM you if that works.

Cheers

Sujay

 

[Rodney Gold]

its easy.. get the inverter and batts and wire it into the distribution board
heres a pic of my setup .. i added another 3 batts since taking it

 

[sujay]

Thanks, Rodney

 

[bplexico]

Thanks for sharing Rodney! I have enjoyed your posts here, and elsewhere. Wonderful system you have.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Not really Ron, its not just about the sound there can be electronic compatibility issues too. As to which approach, its a personal choice, you can't call it false dichotomy. Speaking for my self, I'm sold on Lamm SETs since 1998 and that's it for me and all speaker purchases since have been carefully selected with them in mind. In fact we dropped all other lines in 2000 only carry Lamm products since, so in my case electronics come first.

Dear David, That is very interesting. I never really thought of this somewhat "chicken and the egg" type of question from that way around. Yes, we certainly can start with different approaches and arrive at the same, happy place.

It definitely is interesting to me that you were so taken with a certain designer and his products that you focused thereafter on that equipment as your starting point.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I guess my point is pretty subtle but highly significant.
Yes, I made the major priority the spkrs in going from ProAc to Zu in 2008, and am now on my second lot, the Definitions 4s.
Since then I've prioritised the best amps to go w/the Zus, so still making the spkrs pre eminent in the equation.
But the Zus being high efficiency have allowed me to move into the world of SETs, that would have been cut off from me had I stuck w/the ProAcs, or gone B&W, Magico, Wilson etc.
So, now I have TWO paradigms that are imho both totally amazing, high eff/x'overless/full range driver Zus that major on tonal density, and SETs that major on texture, harmonic truth and delicacy, and the blending of the two just presses my buttons.
This synergy w/refinement over the last 6 months is providing this epiphany phase that I would not have got near had I stayed ProAc/Hovland.
But another different kind of epiphany could be wrought by going horns/SETs. My NATS would allow me to do this.
Or...I could replicate my Zu experience in a different way by trialling Giyas, go to another level above the Zus, and then ditch my SETs for more appropriate SS amps.
My paradigm would go much more back to a traditional, yet near-SOTA moderate efficiency/complex x'over box, ie the Giyas, w/conventional muscle SS amps.

 

[ddk]

That is purely a commercial decision, I would always recommend finding a pair of speakers you really like,then select suitable amplification, and then work at the room to achieve the best ppossible sound quality.
Keith.

To the contrary Keith, the decision wasn't at all commercial I would have made a very different one if it was. I have found everything I like .
david

 

[ddk]

Sorry David you have lost me, I assumed you liked Lamm amps so much that you had to find speakers that could be powered by them?

I do, not sure why you read it differently.

I completely see the point of sticking with amps which are well engineered, with excellent reliability etc.
Personally I would justchoose the speakers first, then find a suitable amp.

\

Nothing wrong with that approach. I would have done the same had I come across the Bionors prior to the Lamms, either way I would have ended up exactly where I am now.

I did try valves but the products we ( briefly) represented were noisy, poorly designed and unreliable.
I have always found it odd how one could produce a noisy low powered amp, which is gong to be used with sensitive loudspeakers!
Keith.

Not everything is born equal...

david

 

[ddk]

Dear David, That is very interesting. I never really thought of this somewhat "chicken and the egg" type of question from that way around. Yes, we certainly can start with different approaches and arrive at the same, happy place.

It definitely is interesting to me that you were so taken with a certain designer and his products that you focused thereafter on that equipment as your starting point.

Its not even that Ron, in my case I found the electronics first would have been the other way around had I come across the speakers prior to the Lamms. Either way there would be a period of testing and discovery prior to finding the revelation.

david

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

We always, in order, consider: Room - Loudspeaker - Amplifier. Loudspeaker for the Room and Amplifier for the Loudspeaker.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me because if the speaker is in a good room for it, the speaker will dominate the sound of the system. So pick your speaker and power it appropriately. And it shouldn't be that hard. Companies who design speakers and components that don't play well with others make it hard. They should be sold with warning labels.

Tim

 

[ddk]

David Hi, so are you a store, and you use the Siemens to demonstrate the amps?
Keit.

That's correct Keith, I had a high end distribution company for many years too and the vintage side grew out of my personal collection, but I'm not very active these days and what little I do is purely for my personal pleasure, and sharing.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

Maybe my point is too esoteric, or maybe I'm misleading myself, or maybe there is no issue at all.
My first system was all-Roksan in 1997. I was pretty green to the hobby, and made a poor choice in retrospect (sound dominated by the dry and unengaging Shiraz cart).
My second system actually did start w/my falling for the ProAc Futures 2 flagship spkrs which I heard at the London Heathrow show in 1999, and I found a system incl amps obv to form around it - they were pretty indifferent to many amps, many SS ones were ok w/them.
But I undoubtedly chose the spkrs first.
I then switched my amps subsequent to getting the ProAcs to my first really high end combination in 2006, the Hovland HP200 tube pre/Radia SS pwr. These synergised nicely w/the ProAcs, and so I guess at this stage I was finding the amps to suit the spkrs.
An element of leaness was ever present, and after reading numerous reviews of the Zu Definitions 2 (thanx so much, Sjraen of 6Moons), went on to demo and buy them in 2008. And the Definitions 4s in 2012.
Synergy w/the Hovlands was better than the Hovlands w/the ProAcs, and I was pretty content, but the lure of SETs became realistic for the first time, because I had now gone from 87dB/1W eff ProAcs to 101Db Zus, and research down this new and exciting path took me first to Audion Black Shadows/Quattros in 2013/14, and now to Nat Audio SE2SEs/Utopia this yr.
So, I guess this is all demonstrating that I've always chosen the spkr first, and then the amps to suit.
So the natural next step would be if I feel the itch to move on from the Zus to investigate another priority spkr choice, and then pick the amp that suits.

But I'm at a different plateau at this point, since I feel the amps for the first time are JUST AS IMPORTANT as the spkrs, and so the choice/logic is not so straightfwd, I can go in two divergent directions.
Because I now have spkrs AND amps which are both special to me, and which work very well together, I can either ditch the synergy of SETs w/high eff spkrs, just pick the best moderate efficency box that appeals, maybe the Giyas, and very likely substitute the SETs w/more of a muscle SS, OR realise the magic of this synergy is greater than the sum of it's parts and maintain the relationship of SETs and high eff, meaning stay as is ie my Nat SETs w.my Zu Def 4s, or my Nat SETs w.new Zu flagship (soon out), or my Nat SETs w/horns eg Trios.

Or is this still a false hurdle/dichotomy I've created for myself, I should just start w/a blank slate, go for the spkr that wks better, and the amp that wks best w/it?
Or realise that this Nat SETs/high eff spkrs (Zus or maybe Trios) axis/combo is greater than the sum of it's parts, and since I'm so tuned into it and stay on the path?

One things for sure, I can't easily replicate the synergy magic of SETs w/high eff w/any spkr like the Giyas.

Sorry guys to be so dog chasing it's tail

 

[Rodney Gold]

my vote is fo a Devialet 200.. G1/2..

 

[microstrip]

(...) Nothing wrong with that approach. I would have done the same had I come across the Bionors prior to the Lamms, either way I would have ended up exactly where I am now.
(...)
david

I have followed both approaches - first electronics of first speakers.

Many years ago I onwed conrad johnson electronics for sometime and looked for speakers that matched them - it is how I got my first Wilson's.

More recently I have owned a a complete Audio Research system - the synergy of using all electronics and sources from the same manufacturer is fantastic - and entered a search for matching speakers.

But as my official resident speakers are the SoundLab's I am always looking for building a system centered on them.

 

[microstrip]

my vote is fo a Devialet 200.. G1/2..

You must listen to the 400's ...

 

[spiritofmusic]

My Giya G1s solution might be to run FOUR Nat SETs monoblocks running 60W/ch and 120W/ch or 170W/ch, all in Class A continuously !!!!!
If you had any doubts about the existence of global warming and rising sea levels, my potential set up would prove it definitively !

 

[amirm]

Neat way to build clean power Rodney. It is a bit harder in US because our voltage is half as much so that power needs to go to the distribution panel and split into two circuits to carry 5 KVA. Having an efficient amp like Devialet helps a lot here due to their much higher efficiency than classic amp topologies.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have followed both approaches - first electronics of first speakers.

Many years ago I onwed conrad johnson electronics for sometime and looked for speakers that matched them - it is how I got my first Wilson's.

More recently I have owned a a complete Audio Research system - the synergy of using all electronics and sources from the same manufacturer is fantastic - and entered a search for matching speakers.

But as my official resident speakers are the SoundLab's I am always looking for building a system centered on them.

Engineered synergy...now that's a concept I can get behind.

Tim

 

[Rodney Gold]

Yes, I split the inverter output into 4 circuits.. we have power issues here in South Africa with rolling blackouts etc .. so in the event of a blackout it powers other stuff too , tv, pvr etc
Max power per plugpoint here is 3kw
I have made my house as energy efficient as possible , solar , leds all round , passive cooling, gas heating etc. even tho its a biggish place at 6000 sq ft , 5kva drives just about everything in the place barring geyser, stove and poolpump..

 

[Ron Resnick]

Dear Marc, There are no right or wrong answers here, in my opinion. There are only subjective preferences. As I mentioned above, I, personally, focus on speakers and then select amplifiers to match.

But I'm at a different plateau at this point, since I feel the amps for the first time are JUST AS IMPORTANT as the spkrs, and so the choice/logic is not so straightfwd, I can go in two divergent directions.

Given where you feel you are "at this point" then the logical answer is not to prioritize speakers over amplifiers or to prioritize amplifiers over speakers, but to compare and audition matched pairs of speakers and amplifiers. Leaving the Zu speakers does not necessarily mean giving up SETs.

Why not pick horn speakers which interest you and audition them with SETs which you know you like (i.e., your NATs). Then listen to Giyas with something like VTL MB-450s in triode mode (which I suspect you will like). And then compare those speaker/amplifier matches to your current set-up, and see which system you find the most emotionally involving.

Since you "now have spkrs AND amps which are both special to [you], and which work very well together" and you "for sure, can't easily replicate the synergy magic of SETs w/high eff w/any spkr like the Giyas" I do not understand why you can't just stop worrying, stop wondering, stop driving yourself crazy and enjoy your current system?