"If you don't have a $200k [speaker]..."

[Willgolf]

After reading 4 pages of comments I forgot the gist of what this thread was all about. LOL.

That said, I can't afford those fancy cars, and I can't afford a blonde or a redhead at this time but I can afford multiple tubes for my DAC with the chump change that I earned in my career.

 

[godofwealth]

I agree with this statement -- Loudspeakers are the most flawed component (Putting streaming aside). I am interested in your statment about 8 bit resolution. Would you be willing to share your math on this?

Sure. Let’s look at the distortion profile of one of the professional world’s most widely used speakers, the JBL M2. This requires two actively equalized amplifiers since the speakers come with no crossover. With the recommended Crown professional amplifier with preloaded digital equalization, this system could run you close to 30 grand. Ok, perhaps that’s not a huge amount compared to some stratospherically priced audiophile speakers from boutique brands like Magico or Wilson, but leaving these aside, let’s look at the distortion profile of the M2s. This plot is from a thorough analysis of the M2 on Erin‘s audio corner.

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Notice that at 86 dB, distortion in the bass is above -50dB. This translates to roughly 8 bits of linearity (each bit gives you 6 dB). 16-bit digital equates to -96 dB distortion, so we are hugely below what you need to resolve a standard redbook CD, let alone 24-bit recordings. The latter are beyond what any loudspeaker can resolve. Even if you spent a billion dollars on a loudspeaker, you cannot, I repeat, you cannot reproduce a 24-bit recording. Heck, even if you spent a billion, you cannot reproduce a 16-bit CD recording truthfully. Loudspeakers are so nonlinear, it’s sad to see all these audio rags twisting themselves into knots about whether a DAC can resolve 24-bit signals (most get to about 20 bits in linearity, but -120 dB is currently in the realm of science fiction for loudspeakers).

 

[godofwealth]

I am sorry, but small puny speakers will never reproduce the sound of a full orchestra ! Sometimes they play far better than what you would expect from their size, but really good reproduction takes some size, a lot of air needs to be moved ! Is price directly in correlation with quality ? No ! But size often helps if it is well made. And size is often expensive !

Hmmm.. just wondering why a loudspeaker like the Phantom Gold that can reproduce a 14 Hz bass signal at 108 dB is called “puny”. Could you name me one speaker from a boutique brand like Magico or Wilson that can do this? I use a Klipsch La Scala, which can easily reproduce a signal at 120 dB, but the La Scala will not go below 50 Hz or so by design. It’s intended to be a low distortion design. Unlike boutique high end speakers that have massive distortion in the bass, the La Scala will reproduce a 50 Hz signal at 110 dB with 0.1% THD — don’t try that with your Magico, you’ll have a large repair bill for blown woofers. But the La Scala will not go lower.

To reproduce 14 Hz sub bass notes at 108 dB, Devialet used experts in the physics of explosives. I can assure you Magico or Wilson have no such expertise. They use drivers made by some other companies, they don‘t make their own drivers. Just because a Magico or Wilson is 6 feet tall and weighs a thousand pounds means nothing at all. It’s a question of physics.

 

[Gregadd]

Crown and JBL in the same post?

 

[bonzo75]

Playing the victim does not suit those of purportedly "superior" experience. If you dish it you should be able to take it.

yes but you should be at least be on point. And try to type something mobil-able size. You essentially are asking me how I am going to do things I am not planning to.

it will be very simple to avoid words and just post videos of 200k plus speakers you think are sounding good in that system set up.

 

[bonzo75]

After reading 4 pages of comments I forgot the gist of what this thread was all about. LOL.

all posts are relevant in latest activity.

 

[morricab]

there is room interaction issues, drivers interaction issues, and requirements to put bigger amps that sound worse but are required for complex crossovers

In some speaker lines the larger speaker is actually easier to drive. Wilson is a good example... the original X1 was a true 95dB and an easy load. It was actually quite SET friendly. The Watt/Puppy was about 3-4 dB less sensitive and a difficult load...not very SET friendly

 

[morricab]

I do not know the model number but Borresson has a bookshelf speaker for $100K. I just can't see myself buying something like that unless I had stupid money. I do not care how good it sounds.

I am debating whether to keep the speakers that are pictured left. I love them. They sound great and are medium size speakers that fill a 30' x 45' room. So, why am I flying to California later this month to hear the Aries Cerat Aurora speakers??? My wife is ready to kill me and they are priced well over $100k. That is not Chump Change for me either.

Does size matter? Hmmm, let me ask my wife. I had Wilson Audio Duette 2's in a very large room and while they were great, I did go to a larger Sonus Faber Amati Tradition Homage speaker. Size did matter in my case!

Aurora!!!

It was totally awesome with Essentia (and Aperio) at Munich last year... don't know what your current speakers sound like as I have never heard that brand but I doubt you will be unimpressed with the Aurora.

 

[bonzo75]

In some speaker lines the larger speaker is actually easier to drive. Wilson is a good example... the original X1 was a true 95dB and an easy load. It was actually quite SET friendly. The Watt/Puppy was about 3-4 dB less sensitive and a difficult load...not very SET friendly

X1 yes, but Alexia and Alexandria X2S2?

 

[morricab]

Proves once again that horns arent the best , i have never seen a automobile with a horn .
( Besides the claxon off course , which is obviously annoying)

As you say.

Porsche with Burmester.
Bentley with naim .
Mclaren used to have meridian now Bowers and wilkins .
Rolls royce bespoke audio system
Kharma used to be in the now deceased Spyker cars .
I have yet to see a car with a Klipsch , lol

My car has a horn...it is kind of a one note sound though...

 

[morricab]

X1 yes, but Alexia and Alexandria X2S2?

X2 Alexandria was also fine. Newer Wilsons less so...

 

[morricab]

Trying to knock some sense into Ked does not qualify as a heated argument !

it's also mission impossible...

 

[bonzo75]

X2 Alexandria was also fine. Newer Wilsons less so...

It sounds like 3 or 4 speakers playing (lack of coherence is a major issue with big speakers), one up, one down, something forward, something at the back.

 

[microstrip]

Hmmm.. just wondering why a loudspeaker like the Phantom Gold that can reproduce a 14 Hz bass signal at 108 dB is called “puny”.

Probably active bass compression. The speaker does not reproduce 14 Hz at 108 dB. At 108 dB sound level the low bass is equalized and strongly reduced. They believe that at this sound level we will not notice it.

Could you name me one speaker from a boutique brand like Magico or Wilson that can do this? I use a Klipsch La Scala, which can easily reproduce a signal at 120 dB, but the La Scala will not go below 50 Hz or so by design. It’s intended to be a low distortion design. Unlike boutique high end speakers that have massive distortion in the bass, the La Scala will reproduce a 50 Hz signal at 110 dB with 0.1% THD — don’t try that with your Magico, you’ll have a large repair bill for blown woofers. But the La Scala will not go lower.

Our local Wilson/Magico distributor is also a Devialet distributor. I have listened to all of them side by side. I know why I prefer the "boutique" high-end speakers.

BTW, although I prefer my tubes I have often praised Devialet latest electronics with the core infinity - they sound great with the referred "boutique" high-end speakers.

To reproduce 14 Hz sub bass notes at 108 dB, Devialet used experts in the physics of explosives. I can assure you Magico or Wilson have no such expertise. They use drivers made by some other companies, they don‘t make their own drivers. Just because a Magico or Wilson is 6 feet tall and weighs a thousand pounds means nothing at all. It’s a question of physics.

No, they simply use the equal loudness curves at their benefit. They know how to play perceptual tricks with electronics - see for example their SAM. Some people like it, others not.

 

[andromedaaudio]

If were talking 200 k + this would be my choice .
Very coherent sounding LS plus it looks nice


The big speaker i heard the most coherance issues with in munchen was the wilson XVX

 

[andromedaaudio]

I m working on a budget Full range /non resonant Ls .
No need to spend 200 K on a LS in my view .
Made of much thinner HPL material/ smaller housing and a simpler finish
Also no high grade Aluminium / machined bass relfex channel but a simple integrated one.
Soundwise hopefully better sounding (different designed more expensive units, no compromise there ) and with more or less the same tonal balance as my current design .
Priced around 15 -20 K
Finding a suitable contractor who can make a low cost high quality housing is the biggest issue/ cost actually

 

[bonzo75]

Our local Wilson/Magico distributor is also a Devialet distributor. I have listened to all of them side by side. I know why I prefer the "boutique" high-end speakers.

So you chose Wilson from between Wilson, Magico, and Devialet speakers?

 

[microstrip]

So you chose Wilson from between Wilson, Magico, and Devialet speakers?

If you had read my posts along many years you would not have asked such question. But I see you have not ...

But I usually choose among speakers that have proper distribution - I avoid exotic birds.

 

[bonzo75]

If you had read my posts along many years you would not have asked such question. But I see you have not ...

Yes I know. But the way you wrote it was too tempting.

Exotic birds require research. Wilson is like Coca Cola, arms length distribution.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Exotic birds require research.

If we did serious research on stereo we would probably pay for a therapist, a pair of Harman speakers and music concert tickets.

Wilson is like Coca Cola, arms length distribution.

Or Porsche and BMW ...