I Am Seeking a Bit More of the CJ GOLDEN GLOW. Please Share Your Thoughts On What Newer CJ Separates to Consider

[paolo]

Meanwhile, back here, down on planet Earth, I replaced the tired new production EH 6SN7's in the MV55 with NOS GE's dated 1957 and 1962. This was an immediate improvement and perhaps SQ will improve further after 100 hours. Coming soon: NOS 5751's for the PV5.....

 

[LL21]

Meanwhile, back here, down on planet Earth, I replaced the tired new production EH 6SN7's in the MV55 with NOS GE's dated 1957 and 1962. This was an immediate improvement and perhaps SQ will improve further after 100 hours. Coming soon: NOS 5751's for the PV5.....

I have to say, having looked at your system. I used to have CJ PV14L/MV60 and the CJ Guarneri Homage. Such a fantastic speaker. The combination is very close to what you are listening to, I believe. Wonderful. Sublime. In fact, if you have updated the PV5 (and the MV55 and MV60 were once compared by Sam Tellig many years ago, as I recall and were quite close I thought)...you could well have the edge over the PV14L.

Do you use the REL with the Guarneris or your LRS+?

 

[paolo]

@LL21. Thank you for your comments. I never thought I'd see a pair of GH's in person let alone own a pair. It was pure chance since I wasn't even looking for different speaker because at the time, I was quite happy with Cremona Auditor M's.

My PV5 came with the Hovland caps and an IEC conversion. It also had some mediocre tubes which I've since replaced with NOS 5965 and 5751's. The 12AX7's are new production Mullards but I've not hooked up my TT yet because the cart is a LO Hana. So far I've just streamed using the Gold Note DS-10. I've got more tube rolling ahead and some cable swapping to do, but for now I'll just let the NOS tubes settle in as I get more familiar with the cj components. So far, so very good.

I tried the RELs with the LRS+ but cannot get 'em dialed in. The Maggies might just be too fast. The LRS+ sound surprisingly good to me when powered by the Luxman 550 AXII. Bass is quite punchy and clean. Not so much with the MV55 as to be expected. As a long-time Maggie fan, the bass in the LRS+ is also surprisingly good sans subs. Another plus is that at least in my small listening room I find the LRS+ easy to position, unlike a pair of .7's I used to have.

OTOH, the Rels work a treat with the GH's which also pair nicely with the vintage cj gear. I'm experimenting with crossover and volume settings on the subs. Less is more.

I've learned a lot about what works for me since selling the MFA gear. Maybe I'm now hearing something close to what Mr. Tellig wrote about. No doubt I'm hearing what you did give or take. And I am liking it! .

They don't call this the "What's Best Forum" for nothing. (shameless obsequious pandering)

 

[tonytsui]

Wow...just saw your system: CJ ART88/108A and Magico Q7v1 with the Nordost Gold loom. I remember one of the members here being absolutely effusive about Zanden amplification with the Q7s. I can imagine you have sublime music with your setup.

Your comments about your electronics accord with where I would have expected this next generation of CJ to be based on my own personal 20 years of owning CJ electronics (mainly their preamps from PV14L thru their GAT 2). As for tubes, I also used their stock (which were much more successful than in their now much older GAT 1)...and then went to Mullards and Telefunkens (over the many years, I ended up owning both at one time or another).

FWIW, I also found the tubes benefited from the EAT Tube Dampers which (for $19 when I last bought them) were just a great buy and easy drop ins.

BTW, you left us hanging there a bit on the SS side...for someone who has the legendary CJ's latest flagships...what SS do you actually find does provide the tonal quality you prefer?

Thanks for the tips on the EAT dampers.

A close friend used to own the same ART88/108A but then switched to the CH L10 preamp and power amps. He reported no loss in tonal quality , improvement in background noise, and is very happy. Friends who listened also reported surprsing musicality. I have not yet listened but will eventually do.

On the other hand, I am very familiar with a pair of Magico 7 V2 driven by top Goldmund pre and power. It has all the resolution and bass control and impact one would wish for, but not the violin tone I prefer. I would say cleaner than clean. But then a Nordost Gold speaker cable was inserted to this system, and wow, the string tone now suddently is there.

I have also been using CJ since the ART2 preamp era and found improvements in resolution and bass extension in every new CJ product, and perhaps the next ones will further improve in these areas. Whether tubes can rival SS in the noise area I don't know.

As to SS and tubes, it's a choice we all have to choose. I have always asked friends, which is most important? Tone, resolution, bass? To me tonal quality comes first. And good SS amps like CH are far more expensive.

 

[Famester]

@LL21.

I tried the RELs with the LRS+ but cannot get 'em dialed in. The Maggies might just be too fast. The LRS+ sound surprisingly good to me when powered by the Luxman 550 AXII. Bass is quite punchy and clean. Not so much with the MV55 as to be expected. As a long-time Maggie fan, the bass in the LRS+ is also surprisingly good sans subs. Another plus is that at least in my small listening room I find the LRS+ easy to position, unlike a pair of .7's I used to have.

OTOH, the Rels work a treat with the GH's which also pair nicely with the vintage cj gear. I'm experimenting with crossover and volume settings on the subs. Less is more.

I had the same issues with my REL Carbon Specials and the ART27A.
Couldn't get them dialed in.
I found that the RELs worked better connected directly via SE to my CJ ET7S2 instead of the amp to REL connection.

 

[paolo]

@Famester

Kindly allow me to clarify my comments about dialing in the REL T5X's. They work fine with the cj MV55 and the Guarneri Homage. I've set the crossover and volume settings on the RELs quite low- barely audible really.

But so far, I can't get the subs to sound good with the LRS+. I generally pair the LRS+ with the Luxman 550 AXii and that gives me surprisingly robust bass when listening to jazz. The cj/Guarneri Homage combo is my preference for streaming classical music. With this configuration digital glare has been tamed, thank goodness. . Jazz of all kinds also sounds lovely with the cj and GH's.

The vintage cj gear and the LRS+ are recent acquisitions and I'm having a great time getting acquainted.

 

[microstrip]

I had the same issues with my REL Carbon Specials and the ART27A.
Couldn't get them dialed in.
I found that the RELs worked better connected directly via SE to my CJ ET7S2 instead of the amp to REL connection.

Although in this hobby we have no rules IMO the REL connection should not be used with tube or other amplifiers with low damping or limited frequency response. Probably it can sound decent with medium - high damping amplifiers.

 

[paolo]

microstrip said:

Although in this hobby we have no rules IMO the REL connection should not be used with tube or other amplifiers with low damping or limited frequency response. Probably it can sound decent with medium - high damping amplifiers.

When using the REL Speakon cable from the system amp to the REL sub, doesn't the internal REL amp do the work and not the system amp? Or am I mistaken?

 

[tobiasrankin]

I have the ART88 / ART108A in for auditioning. I have no experience with previous CJ models but I’d say they have just a smidgen of “golden sound”. It’s faint but there, though not in a distracting manner (I value “neutrality”), noticeable most on piano. This is in direct comparison to Atmasphere MP1.1 / MA-2 and KR P135/VA200 which I’m also auditioning. I do also detect a hint of teflon capacitor colouration similar to the Atmaspheres which have the VCAP upgrades. All together they are surprisingly musical with very good image stability/positioning, they really excel in soundstage size, are very detailed but this detail is well integrated for a fatigue free listening experience, the bass is not the most controlled but it packs a punch and sounds natural on bass instruments. Definitely high level performers and they do grow on you fast, very likeable.

How does this combination compare to other amps/pres you have heard ?

 

[Taiko Audio]

How does this combination compare to other amps/pres you have heard ?

I'm just waiting on a variety of Telefunken, Amperex and Vokshod ECC88/7922/6N23P tubes before drawing any final conclusions. I did exchange V1 in the power amps from the supplied Gold Lion tubes to Philips E88CC SQ, and although I don't like everything about those they do elevate the performance quite considerably in the areas of 3D imaging, dynamics, bass impact/control and sound more neutral (less of that hint of golden glow). I do quite like them so far, they are also new so need some burn in.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I'm just waiting on a variety of Telefunken, Amperex and Vokshod ECC88/7922/6N23P tubes before drawing any final conclusions. I did exchange V1 in the power amps from the supplied Gold Lion tubes to Philips E88CC SQ, and although I don't like everything about those they do elevate the performance quite considerably in the areas of 3D imaging, dynamics, bass impact/control and sound more neutral (less of that hint of golden glow). I do quite like them so far, they are also new so need some burn in.

I have the ART88 / ART108A in for auditioning. I have no experience with previous CJ models but I’d say they have just a smidgen of “golden sound”. It’s faint but there, though not in a distracting manner (I value “neutrality”), noticeable most on piano. This is in direct comparison to Atmasphere MP1.1 / MA-2 and KR P135/VA200 which I’m also auditioning. I do also detect a hint of teflon capacitor colouration similar to the Atmaspheres which have the VCAP upgrades. All together they are surprisingly musical with very good image stability/positioning, they really excel in soundstage size, are very detailed but this detail is well integrated for a fatigue free listening experience, the bass is not the most controlled but it packs a punch and sounds natural on bass instruments. Definitely high level performers and they do grow on you fast, very likeable.

Meanwhile the ART88/108s have settled in, I do no longer hear any “teflon capacitor signature”, I have exchanged the supplied Gold Lions for Telefunkens in V1 and Amperex PQ in V2/V3 which do elevate performance, do sound more neutral, clear and extract more detail. I don’t notice any “golden glow” anymore. I still have KR KT88s on order to try.

Their soundstaging ability is uncanny, they throw the largest stage of any amps I ever owned before. Bass is not the tightest, nor the deepest, but very well defined, agile and dare I say natural. Plenty of slam / impact.

Speedwise they hold the middleground between the Atmaspheres and the KRs. They are clearer and more transparent then both of these. Tonally they are in between aswell, the Atmaspheres are brighter, the KRs darker.

They are just a delight to listen too, I can easily listen to them for 4-8 hours without any fatigue, very musical, very pleasant while rendering all the detail I need.

I am more then pleased with their performance and they’re staying. To be honest I did not expect too much of them prior to their arrival, was admittedly even thinking “another time waster”, but they managed to surprise me.

 

[LL21]

Meanwhile the ART88/108s have settled in, I do no longer hear any “teflon capacitor signature”, I have exchanged the supplied Gold Lions for Telefunkens in V1 and Amperex PQ in V2/V3 which do elevate performance, do sound more neutral, clear and extract more detail. I don’t notice any “golden glow” anymore. I still have KR KT88s on order to try.

Their soundstaging ability is uncanny, they throw the largest stage of any amps I ever owned before. Bass is not the tightest, nor the deepest, but very well defined, agile and dare I say natural. Plenty of slam / impact.

Speedwise they hold the middleground between the Atmaspheres and the KRs. They are clearer and more transparent then both of these. Tonally they are in between aswell, the Atmaspheres are brighter, the KRs darker.

They are just a delight to listen too, I can easily listen to them for 4-8 hours without any fatigue, very musical, very pleasant while rendering all the detail I need.

I am more then pleased with their performance and they’re staying. To be honest I did not expect too much of them prior to their arrival, was admittedly even thinking “another time waster”, but they managed to surprise me.

Wow...what an enormous endorsement! Congrats and enjoy. As a 20-year consecutive owner of CJ equipment leading up to the CJ GAT 2 preamp, I have continuously enjoyed listening to their design evolution during that time. I was extremely intrigued to learn more about the ART88/108 (and also 27a) generation of designs...and your post single-handedly defines what I would imagine them to sound like given your own prodigious expertise and exacting standards.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yep, that sounds about right.

Similar experiences, other differences on speakers during my audition, CLX's and the Alsyvox Botichelli-X, it was superb!
I've already posted this audition under the ART88 tab, very tempting to get them on duty free prices but that's only the first part of the headache... shipping all the way to Aus with no warranty, no thanks. Since we've already got our own CJ importer who's been carrying the brand for decades, I'll stick with them, it's the more ethical thing do to. Bummer though, $AUD price tag on the Art88 & ART108A's is 110grand... just for a bloody pre-power. Dog house incoming!

These are full Class A all tube design and this time JF has really hit the podium. It's a the best that CJ has ever produced by far but it costs a pretty penny, I guess it is what it is.

Enjoy to the fullest! They are a rare opportunity in terms of pre-power at its finest!

Woof! RJ

 

[tonytsui]

Meanwhile, back here, down on planet Earth, I replaced the tired new production EH 6SN7's in the MV55 with NOS GE's dated 1957 and 1962. This was an immediate improvement and perhaps SQ will improve further after 100 hours. Coming soon: NOS 5751's for the PV5.....

Meanwhile the ART88/108s have settled in, I do no longer hear any “teflon capacitor signature”, I have exchanged the supplied Gold Lions for Telefunkens in V1 and Amperex PQ in V2/V3 which do elevate performance, do sound more neutral, clear and extract more detail. I don’t notice any “golden glow” anymore. I still have KR KT88s on order to try.

Their soundstaging ability is uncanny, they throw the largest stage of any amps I ever owned before. Bass is not the tightest, nor the deepest, but very well defined, agile and dare I say natural. Plenty of slam / impact.

Speedwise they hold the middleground between the Atmaspheres and the KRs. They are clearer and more transparent then both of these. Tonally they are in between aswell, the Atmaspheres are brighter, the KRs darker.

They are just a delight to listen too, I can easily listen to them for 4-8 hours without any fatigue, very musical, very pleasant while rendering all the detail I need.

I am more then pleased with their performance and they’re staying. To be honest I did not expect too much of them prior to their arrival, was admittedly even thinking “another time waster”, but they managed to surprise me.

I’ve tried putting NOS in V2 and V3 on the 108a and they soon gone bad. Beware! Apparently requirements for v2 and 3 are different from v1

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey there tonyt, how are you matey?
Was just thinking where you were... did you attend the HK Audio show or has it not yet started? When I left Spore my closest dealer mates were encouraging I should attend but I couldn't since I had to spend time with my pops. After all, turning 90 is no easy gig.

BTW, how are your Q7's going? Especially with the ART108A's and the ART88, that should be a mighty fine combination. I did get a chance to audition the Q7's and one other S series but not with tube gear. It was CH Precision, top notch!

At the end of the day, I think tooobs rule!
Keep em glowing and do enjoy those finest tunes!
Cheers, RJ

 

[paolo]

I decided that the particular PV5 I have been using had a bit too much of the golden glow so I've got an ET3 on order which I suspect will mate quite nicely with the MV55 and leave me with at least a modicum of "glow." And although I'm still rather spry, I'll enjoy having a remote control, particularly when there are sudden loud passages which could be upsetting to my wife who is blessed with sensitive ears.

 

[tonytsui]

Hey there tonyt, how are you matey?
Was just thinking where you were... did you attend the HK Audio show or has it not yet started? When I left Spore my closest dealer mates were encouraging I should attend but I couldn't since I had to spend time with my pops. After all, turning 90 is no easy gig.

BTW, how are your Q7's going? Especially with the ART108A's and the ART88, that should be a mighty fine combination. I did get a chance to audition the Q7's and one other S series but not with tube gear. It was CH Precision, top notch!

At the end of the day, I think tooobs rule!
Keep em glowing and do enjoy those finest tunes!
Cheers, RJ

Hi, show starts today and I’ll be there will some hifi friends from Malaysia. System is stable and under “examination“ by overseas visiting audiophiles.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I decided that the particular PV5 I have been using had a bit too much of the golden glow so I've got an ET3 on order which I suspect will mate quite nicely with the MV55 and leave me with at least a modicum of "glow." And although I'm still rather spry, I'll enjoy having a remote control, particularly when there are sudden loud passages which could be upsetting to my wife who is blessed with sensitive ears.

Nice one Paolo mate!
The ET3 should be a wonderful addition to some finer tunes. Let us know how you find it and overall on what areas did you notice the improvements. With an upgraded preamp, such as the ET3, you'll also notice a more neutral presentation, less coloured and more of the recording.

Cheers, RJ

 

[LL21]

Thanks for the tips on the EAT dampers.

A close friend used to own the same ART88/108A but then switched to the CH L10 preamp and power amps. He reported no loss in tonal quality , improvement in background noise, and is very happy. Friends who listened also reported surprsing musicality. I have not yet listened but will eventually do.

On the other hand, I am very familiar with a pair of Magico 7 V2 driven by top Goldmund pre and power. It has all the resolution and bass control and impact one would wish for, but not the violin tone I prefer. I would say cleaner than clean. But then a Nordost Gold speaker cable was inserted to this system, and wow, the string tone now suddently is there.

I have also been using CJ since the ART2 preamp era and found improvements in resolution and bass extension in every new CJ product, and perhaps the next ones will further improve in these areas. Whether tubes can rival SS in the noise area I don't know.

As to SS and tubes, it's a choice we all have to choose. I have always asked friends, which is most important? Tone, resolution, bass? To me tonal quality comes first. And good SS amps like CH are far more expensive.

Thank you! Very good to know. Have read great things about both Nordost Gold and CH10 series. Agree on tonal purity for me as well. I was CJ for nearly 20 years consecutively. Robert Koda has been the first pure SS amplification to lure me back.

 

[LL21]

Yep, that sounds about right.

Similar experiences, other differences on speakers during my audition, CLX's and the Alsyvox Botichelli-X, it was superb!
I've already posted this audition under the ART88 tab, very tempting to get them on duty free prices but that's only the first part of the headache... shipping all the way to Aus with no warranty, no thanks. Since we've already got our own CJ importer who's been carrying the brand for decades, I'll stick with them, it's the more ethical thing do to. Bummer though, $AUD price tag on the Art88 & ART108A's is 110grand... just for a bloody pre-power. Dog house incoming!

These are full Class A all tube design and this time JF has really hit the podium. It's a the best that CJ has ever produced by far but it costs a pretty penny, I guess it is what it is.

Enjoy to the fullest! They are a rare opportunity in terms of pre-power at its finest!

Woof! RJ

Hey Big Dog RJ,

I looked for your write-up of your experience listening to the ART 88 and ART 108s...for some reason could not find? Saw that you also heard Magicos with CH so was also curious if, by any chance, you heard the ART with Magico as well as the CLX and Alsyvox.

Can you either point us to you write up and/or post it here?