How much of burn-in/ break-in (in hours) is objective vs. getting used to sound?
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In any case, Teflon is a poor choce for a wire insulator:
Triboelectric noise. Silver and Teflon is a particularly bad combination.
PTFE and silver are also on the opposite ends of the triboelectric series. It's pretty easy to generate enough charge to create a significant transient voltage across high-ish impedances. This isn't DC, remember- if charges have a path to dissipate, they'll take it.
Triboelectric noise. Silver and Teflon is a particularly bad combination.
PTFE and silver are also on the opposite ends of the triboelectric series. It's pretty easy to generate enough charge to create a significant transient voltage across high-ish impedances. This isn't DC, remember- if charges have a path to dissipate, they'll take it.
+1 Very accurate, burn-in is real and it often depends on the the material used in the part, construction etc. Tube amplifier output transformers changes are very noticeable during burn-in, and the same transformers built with different materials will burn-in differently.
There's theory and then there's reality. You need more experience with the latter in order to make constructive comments that aren't misleading.
So is this thread going to show up on the DIY Audio Snake Oil thread?
Check out dielectric absorption, dissipation factor and related topics... the material surrounding the wire/cable including the outer jacket make a significant difference.
IMO teflon should never be used as an "air tube" with a bare conductor inside it, and cotton is equally bad as the wire is not protected from corrosion. I've built such cables many years ago and they sound very slightly better than conventional teflon insulation that does touch and seal the wire, but the wire corrodes over several years... I have cables where the silver is completely black and the copper is a dull brown. In the near future I'll make cables with nitrogen gas dielectric, this will be ideal but will make for expensive cables.
With my D4 IC cables you'll need about 500 hours to reach full burn-in but I do put the cables on an audiodharma cable cooker for several days and this speeds up the initial process greatly. Most people can't tell much of a difference after only tens of hours after the cable cooker is used, but there are some folks with good ears and systems that can tell the cables aren't fully burned-in at that point, and they are the ones that generally need 500 hours to be happy with them. The cables have a bit of harshness before full burn-in that is so subtle most people don't notice.
This is not completely true. Read the Keithley handbook on low current measurements - it debates the properties relevant to cable insulators and concludes that "Teflon is the most satisfactory and commonly used insulator for the impedance levels encountered in measurements of currents greater than 10–14A."
Teflon is not a good insulator when it subjected to deformation strain, something that is not an issue with audio cables, unless audiophiles kick their cables ... But this could explain why many manufacturers and users report that cables must "rest" after shipping or being moved.
The same book refers that some types of Teflon cable need some burn-in ...
Hello Micro
What they are talking about is a issue called cold flow. If you put tight bends or pull it over a sharp corner the Teflon flows away from the stress and will expose the inner conductor. We use Teflon coated wire in almost everything we manufacture it's great stuff you just have to be careful how you dress harnesses inside of housings to avoid any pressure points on any of the wires in the bundles.
Rob
And if you go to next page in that doc you see this summary table:
Which says the same thing Speedskater said. That is, teflon is subject to piezoelectric and triboelectric noise.
Do you mind quoting that?The same book refers that some types of Teflon cable need some burn-in ...
And if you go to next page in that doc you see this summary table:
Which says the same thing Speedskater said. That is, teflon is subject to piezoelectric and triboelectric noise.
Do you mind quoting that?
No, Speedskater said clearly and firmly "In any case, Teflon is a poor choice for a wire insulator", ignoring all the other properties relevant to a cable insulator.
It is this part I object. There are many other causes of noise and distortion in cables. Teflon has this problem of triboelectricity - I addressed it in WBF before several times, http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?17267-Dark-Field-SS-vs-Dark-Field-DFE-v2&p=327392&viewfull=1#post327392; http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3066-Cable-Elevators&p=45168&viewfull=1#post45168 but all the positive aspects make it still the best insulator for cables. It is very interesting to see how cable manufacturers overcome the problem of tribolectricity.
I do not have the other observation with me - I have also reported it twice in WBF - the text refers than using some specific type of Teflon insulated cable the system should only be used after some time after switch on - I think about an hour - to reduce the cable intrinsic noise. I will post it later. Surely the approved Keithley manufactured cable did not have this problem!
I might have to specify folks should not use teflon insulated cables as jump ropes while their system is playing...
It's not hard to experiment with this stuff and if you do it's pretty likely you'll find teflon to be the best possible dielectric for audio use besides inert gasses.
Or you can just take bits of knowledge that don't relate to the actual application and draw firm conclusions from it.
It's not hard to experiment with this stuff and if you do it's pretty likely you'll find teflon to be the best possible dielectric for audio use besides inert gasses.
Or you can just take bits of knowledge that don't relate to the actual application and draw firm conclusions from it.
We had an interesting debate some years ago on triggered by Tomelex comment "This whole cable thing is not that complicated" http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3390-How-fast-does-electricity-travel&p=52740&viewfull=1#post52740
My answer was :
"It depends on the amplitude of your signals. The following lines are taken from an old Keithley book on the use of low current meters. Please remember that 1microVolt (-120dB relative to 1 V) divided by 100000 ohms gives .01nA.
Errors in Low Current Measurements (1)
One of the most common causes of error when measuring low currents (<1nA) is offset current, which can come from the test setup or the measuring instrument.
Potential Cause: Insulating Material
Current can leak through an insulating material or over its surface. The insulating material may itself store or generate charge.
Remedies
A. Choose a good insulator
Several properties are important when evaluating an insulator material:
Volume Resistivity—Leakage of current directly through the material.
Surface Resistivity—Leakage across the surface, a function primarily of surface contaminants.
Water Absorption—Leakage dependent on the amount of water that has been absorbed by the insulator.
Piezoelectric or stored charge effects— The creation of charge unbalances (and thus current flow) or voltage shift due to mechanical stress.
Triboelectric effects—The creation of charge unbalance due to frictional effects when materials rub against each other.
Dielectric Absorption—The tendency of an insulator to store/release charge over long periods of time. For a listing of common insulating materials and their characteristics, see the Keithley Low Level Measurements handbook, Section 2.2.2."
Cable design is a balance of all these effects and the basic electrical properties - compromises exist everywhere.
My answer was :
"It depends on the amplitude of your signals. The following lines are taken from an old Keithley book on the use of low current meters. Please remember that 1microVolt (-120dB relative to 1 V) divided by 100000 ohms gives .01nA.
Errors in Low Current Measurements (1)
One of the most common causes of error when measuring low currents (<1nA) is offset current, which can come from the test setup or the measuring instrument.
Potential Cause: Insulating Material
Current can leak through an insulating material or over its surface. The insulating material may itself store or generate charge.
Remedies
A. Choose a good insulator
Several properties are important when evaluating an insulator material:
Volume Resistivity—Leakage of current directly through the material.
Surface Resistivity—Leakage across the surface, a function primarily of surface contaminants.
Water Absorption—Leakage dependent on the amount of water that has been absorbed by the insulator.
Piezoelectric or stored charge effects— The creation of charge unbalances (and thus current flow) or voltage shift due to mechanical stress.
Triboelectric effects—The creation of charge unbalance due to frictional effects when materials rub against each other.
Dielectric Absorption—The tendency of an insulator to store/release charge over long periods of time. For a listing of common insulating materials and their characteristics, see the Keithley Low Level Measurements handbook, Section 2.2.2."
Cable design is a balance of all these effects and the basic electrical properties - compromises exist everywhere.
When people have no real experience all they are able to do is post charts with pretty highlights.I might have to specify folks should not use teflon insulated cables as jump ropes while their system is playing...
It's not hard to experiment with this stuff and if you do it's pretty likely you'll find teflon to be the best possible dielectric for audio use besides inert gasses.
Or you can just take bits of knowledge that don't relate to the actual application and draw firm conclusions from it.
Very interesting. Your method for parsing out gear "burn in" changes from simultaneous perceptual "burn in"?
Why, Goliath, whatever do you mean?
Well, at the same time that these "burn in" changes are taking place over time, as claimed, whether it be minutes, hours or even days, your perceptions too are changing over time, entirely outside of your control.
So the simple question is : how did you manage to isolate gear "burn in" changes from your perceptions changing over time? After all, the differences you claim to hear may have been a result of a perceptual change, memory, mood swings, day dreaming, expectations, etc, etc ... all expected over time, but it appears in your case you have side-stepped that possibility and rather assumed the changes/improvements were a direct result of the gear changing, as opposed to you changing.
Interested to know what controls you implemented in your listening sessions to test only gear "burn in"?
Look forward to hearing from you.
Well, at the same time that these "burn in" changes are taking place over time, as claimed, whether it be minutes, hours or even days, your perceptions too are changing over time, entirely outside of your control.
So the simple question is : how did you manage to isolate gear "burn in" changes from your perceptions changing over time? After all, the differences you claim to hear may have been a result of a perceptual change, memory, mood swings, day dreaming, expectations, etc, etc ... all expected over time, but it appears in your case you have side-stepped that possibility and rather assumed the changes/improvements were a direct result of the gear changing, as opposed to you changing.
Interested to know what controls you implemented in your listening sessions to test only gear "burn in"?
I cannot answer for Stehno of course, but I find the answer to your query very simple: If you love music, not sound, you tend to concentrate on the composers and the interpreters intentions. You concentrate on the music. If the "message " suddenly changes, for better, or in fact for worse, you are jolted out of your concentration and begin to wonder about the sound. This has nothing to do with mood changes or day dreaming. Suddenly a change of seats in a concert hall comes close to the experience. For me, what Stehno has described at great length, is a reality, which I have experienced many times.
But 'Detlof' the question is?
How do you pin the changes you hear down to burn-in of one component.
There are so, so many more likely reasons for the audible differences than many of hours of burn-in.
How do you pin the changes you hear down to burn-in of one component.
There are so, so many more likely reasons for the audible differences than many of hours of burn-in.
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Agreed Kevin, but you can narrow down the chances of "other factors" being the cause, if the equipment is new or moved, there is a sudden change after a while and that change stays on, to be possibly followed by a next change, which again allows the music to come through more clearly. Of cause this is not " scientifically established ", but I have learnt in the course of many years of listening to music at home, to count out other factors under these specific circustances which Stehno describes so well.
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