How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?

 

I just purchased mine and it’s new. From what I understand Pro-Ject has just started shipping them. The new transports apparently have a different lid because they were having problems with it. I hope I don’t have any issues with it because it is so wonderful.

Please pass along a picture of the revised lid when you get it. Luckily mine has been perfectly reliable.

 

Here’s a few of photos of the latest Pro-Ject transport, small and compact.

 

Here’s a few of photos of the latest Pro-Ject transport, small and compact.

Yes, definitely a different upper lid compared with my older RS2T. Earlier I had written I purchased mine in November 2022. Actually I’ve had mine since November 2021. It has remain rocksolid reliable.

 

Yes, definitely a different upper lid compared with my older RS2T. Earlier I had written I purchased mine in November 2022. Actually I’ve had mine since November 2021. It has remain rocksolid reliable.

Mine hasn’t had any problems in six days. I’m hoping it has the same reliability as yours.

 

Here’s a few of photos of the latest Pro-Ject transport, small and compact.

...and thanks for including the Oban 14 in the pic for scale!

 

Mine hasn’t had any problems in six days. I’m hoping it has the same reliability as yours.

I sure hope that is your outcome. If Pro-Ject has solved the past issues with reliability they have a genuine first rate CD transport in the marketplace.
Charles

 

...and thanks for including the Oban 14 in the pic for scale!

Of course, I thought it was better than a ruler.

 

Yes, definitely a different upper lid compared with my older RS2T. Earlier I had written I purchased mine in November 2022. Actually I’ve had mine since November 2021. It has remain rocksolid reliable.

The Pro - Ject always struck me as rather good value Charles .

 

Intriguing Comparisons and a Digital Dilemma

As I was reading the beginning of this thread, my project on building a digital system resonated deeply with Ron's initial question. While I haven't delved into every conversation, the topic holds immense interest for me.

My audiophile pursuits encompass several systems, one of which is a fully digital setup centered around the Wilson Alexx speakers sourced from a 4-module Vivaldi Apex dCS system. This high-end digital chain, including dCS upsampling, Roon, a dedicated network switch, and a high-quality power supply, delivers acceptable performance but the soundstage, clarity, and overall musicality of CDs and SACDs consistently surpass what I hear from streaming services.

My dilemma becomes apparent when I turn to my beloved vintage audio system. Among several cherished setups, my "reference" system revolves around the Tannoy Autograph speakers, driven by an Audio Note UK M9 Phono preamp and various Audio Note UK power amplifiers with reference TT & analog systems. To this analog realm, I recently added the Audio Note UK DAC 5.0 Signature. This top-tier DAC primarily serves the Oppo 105 Blu-ray player for the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall, high-resolution Blu-ray discs, and, occasionally, my beloved old Philips LHH-500 CD player as CD transport. I do not use in this system another streaming service like Tidal, etc...

Last week, I embarked on a revealing comparison. Using this Philips player as the CD transport, I sampled the same Berliner recording across five different formats (Beethoven´s Complete Symphonies Cycle by Simon Rattle): LP, Blu-ray Audio, Blu-ray video, standard CD, and streaming from www.digitalconcerthall.com. While I could have downloaded the original files for even deeper analysis, I opted for this accessible comparison across readily available formats.

The results were astounding and frankly, troubling. The undisputed champion was the vinyl LP, offering an unmatched level of realism, depth, and musicality. The second place? Surprisingly, it wasn't the CD, but instead, a tie between the Blu-ray Audio/video and the Digital Concert Hall stream. These digital formats delivered clarity, dynamics, and a wider soundstage that surpassed the CD experience.

The CD emerged as the weakest contender of the five. Its sound lacked the transparency, airiness, and bass extension of the other formats, and the soundstage felt constricted. This perplexing outcome led me to question the source. Could the original Berliner CD mastering be inferior? Or is the Digital Concert Hall stream somehow "enhancing" the sound in a way that surpasses the original CD data?

Naturally, this raises the question of potential improvements if I swapped the CD transport. However, my quest for superior transport has proven fruitless so far. This humble Philips LHH-500, a seasoned veteran, has consistently outperformed high-end contenders from all Krell (including 20 & 25, Esoteric (excluding their Grandioso), Wadia, Jadis, Accuphase, and more. Only the Vivaldi dCS transport, within the complete dCS system, has ever managed to dethrone it. Some day I´d like to test CEC TL01 or Audio Note UK CDT 5.0.

Why does the CD format fall short compared to other digital options in my vintage system? Why the performance of www.digitalconcerthall.com is superior to the original CD issued by Berliner?? This is a big dilemma for me. If someone can help me, I will appreciate it a lot.

 

Dante Choi, which Esoteric model(s) did you try? Interested to know if any of their better players with newer Master Sound Discrete DAC technology - IMO a big step up from prior generations.

 

… coming from the other thread I would like to rephrase

”can streaming ripped CDs as lossless WAV sound as good as direkt CDP and at what price”?

… all the talk about the audio signal degrading through transport via ethernet and noise added on the way got me confused… it seems, that if you dont spend 10k+ on switches, filters, clocks and what not the signal that is served to the DAC is mediocre at best…

… now I have not invested in a new CDP or CDT yet - but all that talk about the signal being compromised till it actually reaches the DAC is making me think, why not avoid all that trouble and simply invest in a decent CDP/CDT…

So whats you experience, is it really such a struggle to get ripped CDs to sound as good as a CDP? Do you really need all that extra stuff to make the signal path clean and reach CDP quality?

I mean - you need a CD transport to rip, you need ripping software, you need decent storage and a server for the ripped file, then you need software (Roon in my case) to run the thing, then it goes to the router, where you need a decent switch and an extra power supply for the switch, then extra cabling to bring it to the music room, then a filter and a bridge, then a reclocker and then it arrives at the DAC… wow… why not just buy a CDT and avoid all that interference?

Really interested in peoples thoughts… what does it really take to get the whole thing to rival let`s say a 5k CDT or CDP ala small Metronome or used Wadia or such…

 

I mean - you need a CD transport to rip, you need ripping software, you need decent storage and a server for the ripped file, then you need software (Roon in my case) to run the thing, then it goes to the router, where you need a decent switch and an extra power supply for the switch, then extra cabling to bring it to the music room, then a filter and a bridge, then a reclocker and then it arrives at the DAC… wow… why not just buy a CDT and avoid all that interference?

Exactly. that's what I did. I do use a reclocker after my CDT, however (see my signature for details on digital components).

I may be old-fashioned when it comes to the digital high end approach, because i care about sound quality obtained in a way where I don't have to jump through all the hoops in the uncertain hope that after all the drama and/or expense it all works out. I have witnessed too much in that respect not to have any appetite for that.

Yet I am "modern" like everyone else when it comes to streaming for everyday purposes where I don't care about sound quality too much. I stream on phone or laptop. It's fine and enjoyable enough.

 

Intriguing Comparisons and a Digital Dilemma

As I was reading the beginning of this thread, my project on building a digital system resonated deeply with Ron's initial question. While I haven't delved into every conversation, the topic holds immense interest for me.

My audiophile pursuits encompass several systems, one of which is a fully digital setup centered around the Wilson Alexx speakers sourced from a 4-module Vivaldi Apex dCS system. This high-end digital chain, including dCS upsampling, Roon, a dedicated network switch, and a high-quality power supply, delivers acceptable performance but the soundstage, clarity, and overall musicality of CDs and SACDs consistently surpass what I hear from streaming services.

My dilemma becomes apparent when I turn to my beloved vintage audio system. Among several cherished setups, my "reference" system revolves around the Tannoy Autograph speakers, driven by an Audio Note UK M9 Phono preamp and various Audio Note UK power amplifiers with reference TT & analog systems. To this analog realm, I recently added the Audio Note UK DAC 5.0 Signature. This top-tier DAC primarily serves the Oppo 105 Blu-ray player for the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall, high-resolution Blu-ray discs, and, occasionally, my beloved old Philips LHH-500 CD player as CD transport. I do not use in this system another streaming service like Tidal, etc...

Last week, I embarked on a revealing comparison. Using this Philips player as the CD transport, I sampled the same Berliner recording across five different formats (Beethoven´s Complete Symphonies Cycle by Simon Rattle): LP, Blu-ray Audio, Blu-ray video, standard CD, and streaming from www.digitalconcerthall.com. While I could have downloaded the original files for even deeper analysis, I opted for this accessible comparison across readily available formats.

The results were astounding and frankly, troubling. The undisputed champion was the vinyl LP, offering an unmatched level of realism, depth, and musicality. The second place? Surprisingly, it wasn't the CD, but instead, a tie between the Blu-ray Audio/video and the Digital Concert Hall stream. These digital formats delivered clarity, dynamics, and a wider soundstage that surpassed the CD experience.

The CD emerged as the weakest contender of the five. Its sound lacked the transparency, airiness, and bass extension of the other formats, and the soundstage felt constricted. This perplexing outcome led me to question the source. Could the original Berliner CD mastering be inferior? Or is the Digital Concert Hall stream somehow "enhancing" the sound in a way that surpasses the original CD data?

Naturally, this raises the question of potential improvements if I swapped the CD transport. However, my quest for superior transport has proven fruitless so far. This humble Philips LHH-500, a seasoned veteran, has consistently outperformed high-end contenders from all Krell (including 20 & 25, Esoteric (excluding their Grandioso), Wadia, Jadis, Accuphase, and more. Only the Vivaldi dCS transport, within the complete dCS system, has ever managed to dethrone it. Some day I´d like to test CEC TL01 or Audio Note UK CDT 5.0.

Why does the CD format fall short compared to other digital options in my vintage system? Why the performance of www.digitalconcerthall.com is superior to the original CD issued by Berliner?? This is a big dilemma for me. If someone can help me, I will appreciate it a lot.

The Digital Concert Hall is streamed at 24/48, the CD will be a different master.

 

… picking up on this - just out of curiosity, do you guys hear a difference between spinning a cd via cd transport and the same cd ripped to lossless wav and locally served to the same dac?

Theoretically the lossless rip should be superior as source, from what i understand…

cheers,

Christoph

 

… picking up on this - just out of curiosity, do you guys hear a difference between spinning a cd via cd transport and the same cd ripped to lossless wav and locally served to the same dac?

Theoretically the lossless rip should be superior as source, from what i understand…

cheers,

Christoph

"Theoretically" is the word.

 

… yes, but I‘m still interested in peoples findings, does the cd sound better than the locally serves rip or otherwise or are they equally good?

 

If I was to add a CD transport to my MSB Reference DAC/Reference Digital Director combo it would be the Pro-Ject RS2 T (in black livery) via AES/EBU. How would it compare with streaming via the MSB Network Renderer module? I expect it would sound exactly the same, albeit less convenient. Happy to conduct the experiment in the future if funds permit.

 

… yes, but I‘m still interested in peoples findings, does the cd sound better than the locally serves rip or otherwise or are they equally good?

It depends. If:

1) the CD playback is well sorted out, preferably even with reclocker between CD transport and DAC

and

2) the computer option is of average quality

then the physical CD has a good chance of sounding better. Not so good computer audio tends to have a synthetic quality about its sound (which I personally am quite allergic to) that is not found on good CD playback.

 

If I was to add a CD transport to my MSB Reference DAC/Reference Digital Director combo it would be the Pro-Ject RS2 T (in black livery) via AES/EBU. How would it compare with streaming via the MSB Network Renderer module? I expect it would sound exactly the same, albeit less convenient. Happy to conduct the experiment in the future if funds permit.

The MSB Renderer is very good; the sound through it is natural and does not exhibit the synthetic quality often found in computer audio.

I do wonder from past experiences if the streaming sound through the renderer has the same body and weight of good CD playback. A direct comparison would be needed.

 

With digital playback the rule is: the less cpu activity, the less noise, the better sound.

If your streaming program requires more cpu activity than file playback, then the file playback will sound better. Otherwise not.

An old skool cd player has literally no cpu and therefore less noise and better sound than pretty much any computer source. A cd rom or dvd based player has more digital logic and therefore more noise and poorer sound.

With something like an old philips based player, im not sure the lines will ever cross. Try it!

Excellent points. The corollary to that is the high levels of jitter on the S/PDIF interface and the need for error correction in the case of CD transports. Yes, there are many ways to minimise these effects but not entirely.