hello!

[infinitely baffled]

fair enough, i can certainly understand that style of music is not to everyone's taste, but i'm going to disagree with your more objective point below

a system that can play classical music correctly can easily deal with all other genres but the opposite isn't always true.
david

this is the assumption that creates a lack of understanding between the high end manufacturers and youngsters.
i have yet to hear either a moving coil cartridge or valve power amp (SET especially) that comes close to doing justice to the sort of rock solid, extended bass and huge soundstage that is such a feature of dance music.
yet it is my understanding that these are the weapons of choice for classical music lovers?
conversely i have heard systems championed by classical music heads that fell apart on the first bass note of a drum and bass track. a klipsch retailer persuaded me his system had legendary bass so i went round for a demo. he played some of his preferred classical music first, then i played my first tune and turned to him, incredulous that this vaunted system seemed to have nothing at all below 35hz and he was wasting my time

 

[garylkoh]

this is the assumption that creates a lack of understanding between the high end manufacturers and youngsters.

I completely agree. When I first started in Genesis, Arnie Nudell worked for me, and he totally dismissed anything but classical music for designing loudspeakers. When I played any rock music, he would leave the room. I've been designing for over 10 years now, and IMHO the speakers are now much better for Classical music because they play everything else with aplomb. There are MANY young musicians and composers that are inventive and they use all the available instruments (including electronic) at their disposal, not only those instruments that can play unamplified.

I worked with an EDM DJ upgrading the servo-controlled amplifiers and woofers on his pair of Genesis I's - and when I finished, he kept playing on and on because he was hearing things in the bass that he had never imagine he could be hearing.

Thanks for the Fluke tracks. That's one of his albums that I don't have - so I'm picking it up.

Here are a few of my design reference tracks:

From Touch Yello
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYUs9aPiYQ0

From Cornelius Sensuous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaNY75mMV-I

From Infected Mushroom: Vicious Delicious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmdV6nGyyEY

From Massive Attack: Mezzanine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiK2JlBpzvI

From Fink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E3z-418bCI

 

[amirm]

From Touch Yello

That is an addictive track yet kind of an odd music video .

BTW, I too agree that rock, pop, dance, instrumental, etc. can be exceptionally hard to on audio gear. They have very complex waveform so revealing of equipment weakness in any frequency range and of course, replite with deep bass. Tracks like the Daft Punk cycle race in movie Tron can bring many equipment to their knees with its sustained deep bass.

 

[bonzo75]

Problem with classical is the 40 - 50 instruments going in at the same time - so varying frequencies and voltages much tougher to manage than those produced by 4 - 6 instruments. Also, to me, most box speakers sound constipated when they play orchestral, like they are fighting to let loose.

 

[ddk]

Problem with classical is the 40 - 50 instruments going in at the same time - so varying frequencies and voltages much tougher to manage than those produced by 4 - 6 instruments. Also, to me, most box speakers sound constipated when they play orchestral, like they are fighting to let loose.

There's a lot more in play with large orchestral music than just the speakers bonzo. Its easier to reproduce smaller classical pieces at home even from a basic space standpoint.

david

 

[bonzo75]

There's a lot more in play with large orchestral music than just the speakers bonzo. Its easier to reproduce smaller classical pieces at home even from a basic space standpoint.

david

The electronics too. I find that 95% of stuff that sounds good on normal music, sounds flat on orchestral. Dacs, preamps, amps.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron may i ask what you are intending to replace the VPI with?

I ordered a Basis Audio Work of Art.

 

[ddk]

The electronics too. I find that 95% of stuff that sounds good on normal music, sounds flat on orchestral. Dacs, preamps, amps.

Yes, everything plays a role, including the actual recordings.

david

 

[infinitely baffled]

I ordered a Basis Audio Work of Art.

i had to google that.
i know the expression 'laugh out loud' is overused, but that's what i just did on seeing this; sensational Ron

 

[infinitely baffled]

I completely agree. When I first started in Genesis, Arnie Nudell worked for me, and he totally dismissed anything but classical music for designing loudspeakers. When I played any rock music, he would leave the room. I've been designing for over 10 years now, and IMHO the speakers are now much better for Classical music because they play everything else with aplomb. There are MANY young musicians and composers that are inventive and they use all the available instruments (including electronic) at their disposal, not only those instruments that can play unamplified.

I worked with an EDM DJ upgrading the servo-controlled amplifiers and woofers on his pair of Genesis I's - and when I finished, he kept playing on and on because he was hearing things in the bass that he had never imagine he could be hearing.

Thanks for the Fluke tracks. That's one of his albums that I don't have - so I'm picking it up.

Here are a few of my design reference tracks:

From Touch Yello
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYUs9aPiYQ0

From Cornelius Sensuous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaNY75mMV-I

From Infected Mushroom: Vicious Delicious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmdV6nGyyEY

From Massive Attack: Mezzanine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiK2JlBpzvI

From Fink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E3z-418bCI

i'm going to have some fun with those i see, Gary. very much obliged for the post. i'm a big fan of massive attack, passing acquaintance with yello (i know they are spoken of in hushed tones by fans of dynamics) and the others are completely new to me.
i'll let you know how i get on....in turn will you pass on your experiences with fluke?

on the topic of musical preferences, it was seeing boulder's demo playlist that initially drew me to them. hybrid, trentemoller, to name a couple, showed me that they considered EDM a valid and demanding musical style.

while i'm out walking my dogs i'm going to play a mental game of trying to guess which dj uses Genesis products...don't worry, i wouldn't dream of asking, client confidentiality and all that.
thanks for the post!

 

[infinitely baffled]

Problem with classical is the 40 - 50 instruments going in at the same time - so varying frequencies and voltages much tougher to manage than those produced by 4 - 6 instruments. Also, to me, most box speakers sound constipated when they play orchestral, like they are fighting to let loose.

do you like open baffle speakers Bonzo?
i know it's unfashionable to talk about soundstaging up at this level, but in my limited experience nothing else comes close. and that same illusion of having a full orchestra in your living room permits you to fly through space to hawkwind or tangerine dream, or to (no shut up you're going to embarrass yourself).
but i hope you know what i mean...to be transported elsewhere

 

[infinitely baffled]

Tracks like the Daft Punk cycle race in movie Tron can bring many equipment to their knees with its sustained deep bass.

i'm going to have to seek that one out

 

[Ron Resnick]

I would say that 4 units with two 12-inch woofers per unit is better than 2 units with two 15-inch woofers each.

Gary, I fully appreciate that four units with two 12-inch woofers per unit distributed around the room will afford a smoother frequency response than will two units with two 15-inch woofers per unit. But (assuming equal quality voice coils, cones, surrounds, amplification, etc.) ultimately which configuration would have greater low-frequency extension to, and higher SPL at, 16 Hz -- eight 12" drivers or four 15" drivers?

 

[garylkoh]

Gary, I fully appreciate that four units with two 12-inch woofers per unit distributed around the room will afford a smoother frequency response than will two units with two 15-inch woofers per unit. But (assuming equal quality voice coils, cones, surrounds, amplification, etc.) ultimately which configuration would have greater low-frequency extension to, and higher SPL at, 16 Hz -- eight 12" drivers or four 15" drivers?

Difficult question to answer..... 15" cones need to be stiffer and stronger than 12" cones. That adds mass. To drive the 15" cones, you also need higher quality voice coils and higher power amplification. So, if you are going to keep quality the same, I would still go with the 12" drivers. Besides, eight 12" drivers have a larger radiating area than four 15" drivers. 2 x 12" is about 25% more than 1 x 15".

 

[amirm]

on the topic of musical preferences, it was seeing boulder's demo playlist that initially drew me to them. hybrid, trentemoller, to name a couple, showed me that they considered EDM a valid and demanding musical style.

Another fan of Trentemøller here . Here is one of my favorite tracks of them: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003A3K37O?redirect=true&ref_=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_0

I think the synthesizer loops used in some European music is a turn off for many Americans. I enjoy them though .

 

[amirm]

Gary, I fully appreciate that four units with two 12-inch woofers per unit distributed around the room will afford a smoother frequency response than will two units with two 15-inch woofers per unit. But (assuming equal quality voice coils, cones, surrounds, amplification, etc.) ultimately which configuration would have greater low-frequency extension to, and higher SPL at, 16 Hz -- eight 12" drivers or four 15" drivers?

Note that when you use multiple subwoofer around the room to get smoother bass, you actually lose power! Fair amount of the subs' power will be used to cancel modes from others so there is a net loss in output. Of course the tradeoff is worth it as it will create smoother bass response. For most listening spaces though, subwoofers these days are so powerful that i don't see that an issue in all but the most demanding situations.

 

[garylkoh]

Another fan of Trentemøller here . Here is one of my favorite tracks of them: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003A3K37O?redirect=true&ref_=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_0

I think the synthesizer loops used in some European music is a turn off for many Americans. I enjoy them though .

+1 Trentemoller is fabulous. This one is my fav:
http://www.amazon.com/Trentemøller-...IAO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1436543594

It turned out that sixteen 8-inch woofers wasn't enough..... so yesterday I added another sixteen and started to play European music One-and-a-half pairs of Genesis 2.3's. Mike (HiFiGuy) came over for a listen!

 

[Mark Seaton]

i'm actively considering a pair of paradigm sub2's.
how do you think they might compare with a pair of the Rythmik f25's, which are 2 x 15's in a sealed box?
my initial splurge of reading here was about high end subs, i liked the idea of the magico qsubs, but the view of the forum seems clear; it's better to have multiple good subs than one exceptional unit.

Hi Gavman,

Were you considering the paradigm's for the amphitheatre or indoor system? I'm a little confused on your plan with the mention of the berthas. Being that your are building outdoors there are some very interesting and useful things you can possibly construct to greatly help both the bass quality and even significantly reduce the sound to the rear of the system vs. the front. This requires some significant dimension to achieve, but very reasonable vs. any space able to hold 500 people.

 

[DaveC]

I use this Infected Mushroom track to see how clean the basslines can be performed. At the last RMAF a certain panel speaker bottomed out pretty badly at normal volumes The abrupt starts and stops is very demanding.

https://youtu.be/GiXlhwI5xHQ

 

[LL21]

What a great thread for a bass freak like me! Definitely have a fair bit of deep house, as well as soundtracks like Amir mentions (Tron Legacy) and Hans Zimmer (both orchestral and electronic mixed in).

We are contemplating a new room here, so dual subs is [possibly] an option but in the living room...we are coming to the realization that we might have to forgo the 2nd to ensure it stays a living room as much as possible. So now i am in the debate...keep the Velodyne DD18 which has served so well for so long...or consider a single sub that might outdo it? DD18+? Paradigm? JL? The one thing i have enjoyed about the DD18 is its ability to be fine tuned electronically after being tuned by placement (which in a living room can be limited).