Harshness – What causes it? What relieves it?

[Johnny Vinyl]

if your system is harsh...don't necessary blame your speakers or components...blame electronic hash that enters the system via the signal ground plane. It's an easy fix...Entreq !

I thought Entreq was about noise?

 

[rockitman]

I thought Entreq was about noise?

What do you think contributes to harshness ? hash equals noise. I think to assume components or speakers are the culprit is misleading. I didn't think my system was harsh, but some titles in classical go on the edge. (Mercury and RCA Living Stereo) for example. With Entreq, that is no longer the case. Signal plane noise also accentuates sibilance...again with Entreq it virtually disappears.

 

[rockitman]

Entreq is about nothing, apart from extracting cash from the gullible.
Keith

Your a joke. I feel sorry for people who follow your recommendations purchasing equipment from you...Next.....

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

What do you think contributes to harshness ? hash equals noise. I think to assume components or speakers are the culprit is misleading. I didn't think my system was harsh, but some titles in classical go on the edge. (Mercury and RCA Living Stereo) for example. With Entreq, that is no longer the case. Signal plane noise also accentuates sibilance...again with Entreq it virtually disappears.

I get it, but I guess I never looked at noise as something that creates harshness. To me I connect it with quieter backgrounds for a cleaner/clearer image. I wouldn't say for instance that more noise contributes to harshness.

 

[arnyk]

Not simplistic. Mics, like speakers, are transducers, and have poor fidelity relative to decent electronic components. But I don't think the placement is necessarily the issue. There are far too many excellent, close-mic'd recordings to support that.

Close micing tends to remove the environmental acoustics from the recording. In some cases this gives the recording what I call a "Hot" sound which others may call harshness. There are various strategies to restore a natural sound to a recording that is afflicted in this way.

One approach to controlling this Hot sound or if you will Harshness is to restore the effects of the environment acoustics using artificial reverb.

Another approach is to use more distant micing which requires a recording space with favorable acoustics.

Another approach is to use over-all micing to obtain a signal that is rich with environmental acoustical sounds and layer the close-miced track(s) onto it.

 

[slowGEEZR]

My speakers used to sometimes sound harsh and bright, but it wasn't the speaker's fault. For me, it turned out to be the quality of the supporting equipment and/or the source material. I think that some of today's speakers are so accurate, that any deficiency in the chain is exposed in all it's glory. Myself, I don't want one of those "musical" speakers that tone everything down, I want realistic.

 

[JackD201]

What is 'harsness' , a loudspeaker with an up tilted HF could be perceived as lean,clinical etc, or a room which allows the HF to reverberate around for too long.
Equally a rolled off HF is often likened to mellow, unfatiguing etc, measure your room acoustically and discover what is actually happening in your room.
Keith.

Sure but you can make sound harsh in a great measuring room and all you'll need to do so is a wrong valued pad if speakers are the item in question. I appreciate your zeal for room correction. I recognize the positive contributions these instruments can bring but here's a FACT. A room can make a modest system sound much better but it evn that has limits. Big ones. If you don't know what these are, sorry man, I'm not doing your homework for you. You want to know, do some homework. It's a fantastic tool but it is never a cure all. DRC is not a cure all. Never was, never will be.

 

[microstrip]

What do you think contributes to harshness ? hash equals noise. I think to assume components or speakers are the culprit is misleading. I didn't think my system was harsh, but some titles in classical go on the edge. (Mercury and RCA Living Stereo) for example. With Entreq, that is no longer the case. Signal plane noise also accentuates sibilance...again with Entreq it virtually disappears.

Yes, we can say that harshness is a kind of noise that makes music particularly unpleasant. High-end systems are sometimes a blend of high resolution and delicacy, and it is easy to disturb this equilibrium and the system becomes harsh. Many high-end systems sound harsh before warm-up - a system that sounds harsh does not sound powerful and most of the times lacks power.

Most audiophiles will agree that many first generation CD players sounded harsh, but however they measured pretty well according to accepted standards. A nice way to make a system sound harsh is replacing the cables with old Monstercable copper cables showing a greenish color under the transparent insulation. The previous considerations suggest me that although harshness can be due to frequency response, it is not the main cause in high-end systems. I have owned a Mark Levinson Audio Palette equalizer, and only extreme misuse could make my system sound really harsh. Surely all my limited experience and IMHO. YMMV!

 

[dallasjustice]

Caesar,
Do you have any specific experience or setup to which this question is directed or is this another obtuse questionnaire?

 

[microstrip]

You realise the Palette was an EQ?
Keith

No, the six little knobs were used just as electronic safe dials, connected through an umbilical cable to my safe. Much better than my previous one.

 

[DaveC]

My speakers used to sometimes sound harsh and bright, but it wasn't the speaker's fault. For me, it turned out to be the quality of the supporting equipment and/or the source material. I think that some of today's speakers are so accurate, that any deficiency in the chain is exposed in all it's glory. Myself, I don't want one of those "musical" speakers that tone everything down, I want realistic.

Agreed. Otherwise it's not really high fidelity, it's whatever you think it should be. Which is ok, but I choose to pursue high fidelity.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

My speakers used to sometimes sound harsh and bright, but it wasn't the speaker's fault. For me, it turned out to be the quality of the supporting equipment and/or the source material. I think that some of today's speakers are so accurate, that any deficiency in the chain is exposed in all it's glory. Myself, I don't want one of those "musical" speakers that tone everything down, I want realistic.

Point me to any speaker, much less a passive one, that has distortion figures that are better than even good midi. Seriously. Not that I don't believe you, but I'd really like to hear that speaker.

Tim

 

[esldude]

Totally agreed, but I wonder why this is? What happens between performance and playback that allows for this change in perception? I assume that a "flat" response in the recording venue sounded absolutely fine when listening to the live musicians. When I go to concerts of live, unamplified music, harshness isn't generally a problem (although I have heard evidence of it in some smaller rooms for some concerts, which may be a question for another thread) so what gives?

It seems to me that close microphone techniques exacerbate the problem, and that recordings with a bit more space and a bit more of the recording venue don't generally sound as harsh. Naively, I always feel that an utterly flat everything from recording to playback leaves you with the sound of instruments from the position the mic was placed, and let's face it, many real instruments actually do sound very harsh up close. Is this overly simplistic?

I think others have already give you the various reasons.

I find if you use simple miking of live instruments and don't process it the result isn't so harsh and usually not bright (or not by much). By simple miking I mean a stereo pair and possibly a couple omni outriggers. Of course much recording is very close miked. It will be louder, brighter and brash. I think sometimes mic preamps also get overloaded by this. With some inexpensive preamps switching in 10 db of attentuation even if you didn't seem to need it will suddenly clean up the sound.

Then much processing of music has artifacts to coarsen the sound quality. Limiting being my most unfavorite. Plus like others have said, if anything in the signal path is on edge or not up to par it seems to get emphasized as it gets passed along. So it is a number of factors.

And as the counterpoint, as you surmise, simply miked at a distance recordings done with taste and good equipment don't sound so harsh.

 

[DaveC]

Another one is spiked speakers, on a concrete floor it will cause harshness and glare on a wood floor you'll get resonances. Using spikes on anything without a decoupling/isolation device is a really bad idea.

 

[FrantzM]

When I thought I have heard/read it all ...

Carry on Gentlemen.

 

[DaveC]

What is the point of using spikes , which couple with a device which decouples!
Keith.

Agreed, I just didn't want to make a blanket statement that spikes are a poor choice. The one place I think they are useful is on an equipment or speaker platform that is sitting on carpet, so it has a firm foundation. Then I would place a decoupling/isolation device between the platform and speaker or component.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Agreed, I just didn't want to make a blanket statement that spikes are a poor choice. The one place I think they are useful is on an equipment or speaker platform that is sitting on carpet, so it has a firm foundation. Then I would place a decoupling/isolation device between the platform and speaker or component.

Is that different? You're still coupling to the floor, then de-coupling.

Tim

 

[DaveC]

Is that different? You're still coupling to the floor, then de-coupling.

Tim

Right! Coupling to the floor when there is carpet will provide a solid, unmovable surface to place a speaker or component on. Then a decoupling device between the platform and speaker/component. This way the isolation device can work properly, otherwise it will be a combination of carpet and isolation device working, which probably won't work as well.

 

[rockitman]

The thing about spikes is they allow two way transfer of vibration. I thought they would be best on my concrete basement floor with carpet. Decoupling via stillpoint's ultra 5's made a big improvement. Even when you are on concrete, all the mechanicals and general vibrations still transfer into the concrete...and go back up the spike including the music induced vibrations...you don't want a vibration feedback loop so to speak, IMHO.

 

[GaryProtein]

. . . . still points don't decouple .
Keith.

That ought to bring about some interesting posts!