Great article on "Analogue Warmth"

[Phelonious Ponk]

Don't Bogart...that joint, my friend...

 

[Groucho]

Just why would you even bother to be a designer in future when the big boys will knock these off no problem at all?

This argument starts from the assumption that the natural state of affairs is for there to be designers of amplifiers and that they will always have an important job, therefore it follows that the perfect, or adequate, or adaptable, or cheap amplifier cannot exist - because this would render 'amplifier designers' as not very important people which, of course, can never be.

Why start from that assumption? Why not start from the assumption that an amplifier is a particularly mundane piece of hardware that has a pretty simple job to do (particularly in active speakers) and that perhaps there isn't any need to go on re-inventing the wheel year after year, decade after decade, century after century? If we really need all our recordings 'warming up' (which I don't believe), tackle the audio itself with DSP rather than hoping to do it indirectly with last century's hardware.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Class A/B even class A if it is capable of driving the loudspeaker and Class D are extremely similar, provided all are capable of properly driving the loudspeaker in question.
It is possible to design a very low distortion valve amp, which measures almost as well as solid state, but it would sound like a solid state amp.
There is no harm in admitting that you enjoy distortion.
Keith.

No disrespect Keith, yr Liszts were so much better w/the Class AB of the Bakoon, versus the Class D of the Mola Molas. There was no contest IMHO.
I realise you have yr Class D Mola Molas to market, but the Liszts came alive 2 yrs ago w/the Bakoons, at what, 12w/ch Class AB, but were seriously harmonically curtailed w/the Mola Molas, despite these having hundreds of Class D watts to spare.
I'm indeed sorry if you can't hear the difference.
Class D transparent, and on a par w/A, AB? Nah, don't think so. And I'm going to buy a similar amp w/boutique selectable tube impersonations? Nah, don't think so. Where's Alice gone again? Oh, I see where...

 

[spiritofmusic]

This argument starts from the assumption that the natural state of affairs is for there to be designers of amplifiers and that they will always have an important job, therefore it follows that the perfect, or adequate, or adaptable, or cheap amplifier cannot exist - because this would render 'amplifier designers' as not very important people which, of course, can never be.

Why start from that assumption? Why not start from the assumption that an amplifier is a particularly mundane piece of hardware that has a pretty simple job to do (particularly in active speakers) and that perhaps there isn't any need to go on re-inventing the wheel year after year, decade after decade, century after century? If we really need all our recordings 'warming up' (which I don't believe), tackle the audio itself with DSP rather than hoping to do it indirectly with last century's hardware.

Well Groucho, when there is a clear night and day difference btwn Class AB Bakoon at 12W v Class D Mola Molas at 300W going into the same spkr, and the Class AB walks all over the Class D, and this Class D declared as his possible benchmark by the very guy who says all this chameleon-like tech will soon be available, fails at every parameter for me, the argument holds no validity. I don't see any Class D proponents claiming there is more neutral than Mola Mola out there. So the concept falls down at the first hurdle.

 

[spiritofmusic]

we want the same. i call that hifi without ego. every thing in the chain should imo shoule be humble and worship the truth of source. for me the less i can hear a componant the better until you forget you have a hifi and just enjoy the music. that was my mission.

still for me the big problem is how the preformance is captured and translated/transfered to media/playback format. the people who do this are underpressure by the lables and "artist" to make everything loud so it sounds killer on mtv or radio or mp3 with headphones and ear buds as these are the popular ways of listening not 100k hifis.

the lables are retards when it comes to playback as are many artists but the mastering guy are not they sadly have no power and do as told.

i want audiophile mastering orinentated transfers avalible in what ever resolution and format they were made in(pcm or dsd) not upscaled or down scaled as i can do that if i want and i wont want anyway. all cut with a hifi in mind 2ch with a seperate offering for multi ch. avalible to down load. plus for the physical mediums be it reedbook or vinyl or sacd to be transfered to these formats in the best way for each not a one size fits all.

mps3 is yesterdays news in a world with the avalible storage as cheap as it is and broadband as fast.

once all this happens universially then its worth argueing about this and that but till it does our collective might should be solely focused on this. not all this other nonsense.

+1 x10000000000000000000000000000000000000000.....

 

[Purite Audio]

No disrespect Keith, yr Liszts were so much better w/the Class AB of the Bakoon, versus the Class D of the Mola Molas. There was no contest IMHO.
I realise you have yr Class D Mola Molas to market, but the Liszts came alive 2 yrs ago w/the Bakoons, at what, 12w/ch Class AB, but were seriously harmonically curtailed w/the Mola Molas, despite these having hundreds of Class D watts to spare.
I'm indeed sorry if you can't hear the difference.
Class D transparent, and on a par w/A, AB? Nah, don't think so. And I'm going to buy a similar amp w/boutique selectable tube impersonations? Nah, don't think so. Where's Alice gone again? Oh, I see where...

Mark that is simply not true, I have /had both amps here and was able to swop between them at will, there was relatively very little difference between them, I felt that the Molas were better able to control the upper bass, which I felt had more punch than with the Bakoon.
Also you heard the /Bakoon without any room treatment and the Molas with the Illusonic processor ,very different sound.
I also have a hybrid amp here, the differences between it and the two solely solid state amps are much more apparent.
It is fine to like distortion that 'most' valve amps add, just don't kid yourself that it is somehow better.
Keith.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This argument starts from the assumption that the natural state of affairs is for there to be designers of amplifiers and that they will always have an important job, therefore it follows that the perfect, or adequate, or adaptable, or cheap amplifier cannot exist - because this would render 'amplifier designers' as not very important people which, of course, can never be.

Why start from that assumption? Why not start from the assumption that an amplifier is a particularly mundane piece of hardware that has a pretty simple job to do (particularly in active speakers) and that perhaps there isn't any need to go on re-inventing the wheel year after year, decade after decade, century after century? If we really need all our recordings 'warming up' (which I don't believe), tackle the audio itself with DSP rather than hoping to do it indirectly with last century's hardware.

OK, this is interesting, because the history on the pro side shows that there is good reason to keep re-inventing. Thing is, they've gone in exactly the opposite direction from the audiophile community -- the innovations have made amplification cooler, lighter, quieter, more powerful and far less expensive. Amplification continues to be refined, even though more often than not it is an anonymous commodity under the brand of the speaker that contains it.

Modeling is the other interesting conversation going on in this thread. For the state of the art in audio modeling, look at guitar amplifiers. Those guys are really good at making solid state sound like tubes misbehaving.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

we want the same. i call that hifi without ego. every thing in the chain should imo shoule be humble and worship the truth of source. for me the less i can hear a componant the better until you forget you have a hifi and just enjoy the music. that was my mission.

still for me the big problem is how the preformance is captured and translated/transfered to media/playback format. the people who do this are underpressure by the lables and "artist" to make everything loud so it sounds killer on mtv or radio or mp3 with headphones and ear buds as these are the popular ways of listening not 100k hifis.

the lables are retards when it comes to playback as are many artists but the mastering guy are not they sadly have no power and do as told.

i want audiophile mastering orinentated transfers avalible in what ever resolution and format they were made in(pcm or dsd) not upscaled or down scaled as i can do that if i want and i wont want anyway. all cut with a hifi in mind 2ch with a seperate offering for multi ch. avalible to down load. plus for the physical mediums be it reedbook or vinyl or sacd to be transfered to these formats in the best way for each not a one size fits all.

mps3 is yesterdays news in a world with the avalible storage as cheap as it is and broadband as fast.

once all this happens universially then its worth argueing about this and that but till it does our collective might should be solely focused on this. not all this other nonsense.

Surprise! Another interesting topic in a thread I thought was toast....I don't think you even need to start with the native formats. The substantive difference is in the mastering itself. I wish they'd release two masters, the loud one and the one mastered with appropriate dynamics. Develop a market for that in Redbook, and perhaps the audiophile formats would follow.

Tim

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mark that is simply not true, I have /had both amps here and was able to swop between them at will, there was relatively very little difference between them, I felt that the Molas were better able to control the upper bass, which I felt had more punch than with the Bakoon.
Also you heard the /Bakoon without any room treatment and the Molas with the Illusonic processor ,very different sound.
I also have a hybrid amp here, the differences between it and the two solely solid state amps are much more apparent.
It is fine to like distortion that 'most' valve amps add, just don't kid yourself that it is somehow better.
Keith.

Keith, please don't bring concepts like "truth" into an argument in one of the most subjective hobbies yet invented by rich men LOL!
So, if you're telling me the clipped harmonic development in yr current sound, the dryness of the sound, the bleached tonal density, is the fault of yr Illusonic, too bad, that's not for me too.
The fact you feel there is nothing lost going from the Bakoons to the Molas speaks for itself.
You've been thru quite a few brands in your professional capacity, all I can say is the Liszts had a livewire, "real" quality w/the Bakoons, that brought the hairs up on the back of my neck, that was just not present on the tidy ordered Mola Mola presentation.
And before you put me down as a tubes distortion patsy, I objected to the Tron 211's sound w/the Liszts even more.

 

[spiritofmusic]

yea this highlights the fact that we need to hear new things one at a time in the enviroment we know best and where they are to be used. as doing otherwise can lead to false impressions. in turn this can lead to fales asumptions and prejudice that close your mind to things that other wise might bring you joy. so keith i may one day be intrested in new amps(mola mola) but you would have to get on your bike to somerset lol

its how these things interact with your enviroment then what you think of the result thats the big deal.. not the price or make or indeed the technology involved. its the music you end up with in your house determind by you..oh and what you can get away with by other half before sex becomes a distant memory.

not to say spirit still wont agree with you keith and as you know the customer is never right.... err did i get that wrong lol

Spaz, this forum needs guys like you, even though I'm sure our US cousins will not be able to get past your shocking disregard for SpellCheck much longer LOL!
You are sweeping the cobwebs out w/a hurricane of common sense thinking, worded in the most heart of the matter/matter of fact way possible.
I'm a fanboi, where can I get the t-shirt?
"Spaz For President" on the front, "Detlof For Vice President" on the back.

Wrt mastering, one of the most fascinating experiences I had recently, was listening to a well sorted horns system, Barry58's AG Duos w/45 tube amp. We were really enjoying dsd, one track after another demonstrating the kind of warmth the naysayers always said was vinyl euphonic colouration - was there in all it's glory, bringing dsd closer to vinyl than any rbcd had. Then we put a cd on, Ella, and it blew away the dsd experience on other tracks, just a sense of space and verve - could only be the mastering, certainly not the format.
And then we went from the £20k Audio Aero down to a £1500, non fancy, tt. Put Frank on, and he was in the room, breathing down our necks, w/more presence and tone you could hope for.
I know what my conclusion is...

 

[microstrip]

This argument starts from the assumption that the natural state of affairs is for there to be designers of amplifiers and that they will always have an important job, therefore it follows that the perfect, or adequate, or adaptable, or cheap amplifier cannot exist - because this would render 'amplifier designers' as not very important people which, of course, can never be.

Why start from that assumption? Why not start from the assumption that an amplifier is a particularly mundane piece of hardware that has a pretty simple job to do (particularly in active speakers) and that perhaps there isn't any need to go on re-inventing the wheel year after year, decade after decade, century after century? If we really need all our recordings 'warming up' (which I don't believe), tackle the audio itself with DSP rather than hoping to do it indirectly with last century's hardware.

If DSP proponents had something to suggest as effective as the electronic chain to please audiophile preferences it would be very well accepted. BTW, Nelson Pass answered your main question in his manual for the XS series:


If you are concerned that your power amplifier (or anything else
for that matter) is as objectively and technically accurate as possible,
that is a perfectly legitimate criterion. You will certainly find many
products in the marketplace that excel at conventional objective
performance, and most of them are much cheaper.

Our real customers care most about the experience they get when
they sit down to listen to their music. We create amplifiers that we
like to listen to, on the assumption that we share similar taste
We want our products to invite you to listen. We want you to enjoy
the experience so much that you go through your entire record
collection - again and again. This, by the way, is a very strong
indicator.
A simple survey of really successful audio amplifiers shows
that objective performance numbers by themselves are not that
important.

That Would Be You.

If you are concerned that your power amplifier (or anything else
for that matter) is as objectively and technically accurate as possible,
that is a perfectly legitimate criterion. You will certainly find many
products in the marketplace that excel at conventional objective
performance, and most of them are much cheaper.

Our real customers care most about the experience they get when
they sit down to listen to their music. We create amplifiers that we
like to listen to, on the assumption that we share similar taste.
We want our products to invite you to listen. We want you to enjoy
the experience so much that you go through your entire record
collection - again and again. This, by the way, is a very strong
indicator.
A simple survey of really successful audio amplifiers shows
that objective performance numbers by themselves are not that
important.


I marked in bold what I find basic concepts behind high-end - creating a sound reproduction that is systematically enjoyable for the consumer. But also acknowledging that excellent stereo reproduction involves the listener and needs his collaboration in such a strong way that it is not possible to create unique products that are the preferred by everyone.

 

[Groucho]

OK, this is interesting, because the history on the pro side shows that there is good reason to keep re-inventing.

A minor distinction, but I would have said that they were "inventing" or at least "innovating" rather than "re-inventing" (which is what I think the audiophile people do).

the innovations have made amplification cooler, lighter, quieter, more powerful and far less expensive. Amplification continues to be refined, even though more often than not it is an anonymous commodity under the brand of the speaker that contains it.

Indeed, this is how I think it should be.

Modeling is the other interesting conversation going on in this thread. For the state of the art in audio modeling, look at guitar amplifiers. Those guys are really good at making solid state sound like tubes misbehaving.

Yes, and it assumes there is a neutral amplifier at the end of it. But if we believe that the 'magic' is the interaction of the amplifier with the load itself, interaction that varies dynamically with coil temperature and therefore ambient temperature, or maybe the room-dependent microphony of valves (that is real and measurable, but not so easily simulated), it can't, in fact, be modelled and simulated to the satisfaction of audiophiles.

But this is all starting from the assumption that it is self-evident that non-neutral amplifiers do, in fact, improve the sound. My 'philosophy' is the other way round: I want a neutral, powerful amplifier that remains demonstrably neutral with any load I give it. I can then forget about it. I want a speaker that is as neutral as I can make it. Naturally this involves active crossover, three-way, driver correction, prodigious bass capability etc. I can then forget about it. I want a source that is as neutral as I can make it. Digital fits the bill. If this combination sounds wrong to me, I will try to find out why and fix it - maybe I just need to get used to it. Only after I have exhausted all that, will I cast around for a suitable virtual DSP fuzz box to put in the way. But have you ever heard a system that does genuinely attempt to be neutral all the way? (stressing the need to be truly neutral, including the bass - it is not 'compact' - including the phase correction). You don't need to get used to it, and you don't need the fuzz box!

 

[microstrip]

we want the same. i call that hifi without ego. every thing in the chain should imo shoule be humble and worship the truth of source. for me the less i can hear a componant the better until you forget you have a hifi and just enjoy the music. that was my mission. (...)

spazmatron,

Everybody agrees when we request something that does not exist. We disagree as soon we look for its practical existence. "Humble" and "worship of truth" are just nice words to mean something that does not disturb our own perception of the music. Just MHO.

 

[spiritofmusic]

yes its how it gets onto the playback format thats important everything else is bullsheIt. but people obsess over the little bit they control as it gives them the delusion of being ones own master that you humans seem to need to make yourselfs feel safe.

its ok though as this provides endless amusement to the rest of the observing universe. sadly they are too busy laughing to fix my languge matrix.... plus if anyone starts taking me seriously this may bring radical change and the comic value of the human race would be lost.. thats the only thing keeping you all alive so 'best carry on up the delusion'.

"Carry On Up The Delusion"? Kenneth Williams as Miles B Astor, Sid James as Peter "Wankergate" Breuninger, Frankie Howard as Ken Kessler? I fear very few reading this will have ANY idea what I'm wittering on about.

 

[Groucho]

Nelson Pass answered your main question in his manual for the XS series:


Our real customers care most about the experience they get when
they sit down to listen to their music. We create amplifiers that we
like to listen to, on the assumption that we share similar taste
We want our products to invite you to listen. We want you to enjoy
the experience so much that you go through your entire record
collection - again and again. This, by the way, is a very strong
indicator.
A simple survey of really successful audio amplifiers shows
that objective performance numbers by themselves are not that
important.

That Would Be You.

I marked in bold what I find basic concepts behind high-end - creating a sound reproduction that is systematically enjoyable for the consumer. But also acknowledging that excellent stereo reproduction involves the listener and needs his collaboration in such a strong way that it is not possible to create unique products that are the preferred by everyone.

I have rarely read anything as transparently and calculatedly flattering to the man with the cheque book as this! And if I had designed an amplifier and I knew its measurements weren't all that great, I would have said exactly the same thing, simply to head off any problems with the inevitable Stereophile review & measurements. I would also make sure my amplifiers were big, heavy and included some expensive-looking (yet simple to arrange) 'machined from the solid' vibe.

 

[microstrip]

I have rarely read anything as transparently and calculatedly flattering to the man with the cheque book as this! And if I had designed an amplifier and I knew its measurements weren't all that great, I would have said exactly the same thing, simply to head off any problems with the inevitable Stereophile review & measurements. I would also make sure my amplifiers were big, heavy and included some expensive-looking (yet simple to arrange) 'machined from the solid' vibe.

I am disappointed. It this the only aspect you find worth commenting? BTW, Pass XS designs measure excellently.

 

[Groucho]

I am disappointed. It this the only aspect you find worth commenting? BTW, Pass designs measure excellently.

As I say, I just want 'neutral' so there's not much to say. I am sure they measure excellently (I wouldn't expect anything else), but if I were in his position I, too, would seek to cast unprovable aspersions on my competitors whose products measured just as well but were cheaper.

 

[Blue58]

Wrt mastering, one of the most fascinating experiences I had recently, was listening to a well sorted horns system, Barry58's AG Duos w/45 tube amp. We were really enjoying dsd, one track after another demonstrating the kind of warmth the naysayers always said was vinyl euphonic colouration - was there in all it's glory, bringing dsd closer to vinyl than any rbcd had. Then we put a cd on, Ella, and it blew away the dsd experience on other tracks, just a sense of space and verve - could only be the mastering, certainly not the format.
And then we went from the £20k Audio Aero down to a £1500, non fancy, tt. Put Frank on, and he was in the room, breathing down our necks, w/more presence and tone you could hope for.
I know what my conclusion is...[/QUOTE]

Blue58 to you mate!

Q? Do you get analogue warmth at a live gig after the music goes through all that cable, soundboard and PA?

And do we care if we don't.? No we x@&@xing don't.

This is one crazy thread. To add to the cast of characters, Michael Crawford as Spirit! , Ooh Betty! LOL

 

[spiritofmusic]

Groucho, I actually find it refreshing he says they sound good to them, and hope/expect they sound good to the potential buyer. A non sequitur, but more honest than the usual marketing guff/pseudoscience confabulation.
Pretty much saying "do you have the ears we have?..."

 

[spiritofmusic]

Barry, comparing to live. Always a fruitless task, esp when those horns in Scheherazade at the RFH punch you in the chest, and you get the kind of adrenaline rush more akin to plummeting down an Alpine Black Run, than the cosy confines of a home audio system.
Now...can you at least begin to replicate tone and natural warmth of live classical/jazz at home? Here there is more room for success. Which brings us back to the title of this thread...