Esoteric Grandioso T1 turntable arrives; G1X Master Clock coming.

[tima]

Yes, speed stability and steadiness are the same as far as I understand it. Ron seems to think they are different. They are distinct from speed accuracy. Ron says I’m only talking about the former when in fact I am discussing both accuracy and stability (consistency).

To my understanding for this topic, accuracy and stability are not the same property or attribute. Accuracy refers to speed measurement at a given point in time -- the closer the platter turns at 33? rpm the more accurate it is. Stability (or steadiness) refers to speed consistency across time. The more often a table's speed deviates from pitch perfect 33? rpm, the less stable it is. Peak deviation can be expressed as parts per million.

When I write about this I use the phrase 'stable accuracy'.

Imo measurement of the platter itself is preferred to visual measurement or gyroscopes, for example by reading marks on an encoder ring at the platter's circumference. A high read rate with the ability of a controller to act on it is preferred.

It is often claimed that stability fluctuation is more audible than speed error.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron seems to think they are different.

I was parroting Mike. I have no knowledge of this particular subject.

 

[morricab]

Cogging will not be affected by the drive signal; in fact, PWM is the preferred way to drive these motors as it allows smaller changes and slower speed where sinewave drive does not. A good analogy is model trains; if you use DC voltage to control the speed, the train stops moving at a much higher speed than most enthusiasts would prefer because the motor will lack sufficient torque to overcome losses. Using PWM, you can control the speed all the way down to stopped and small changes will take effect more accurately. The same applies to TT motors; with PWM you will be able to control small changes much more accurately than with sinewave drive and it works smoother at slower speeds.

Cogging is caused by changes in magnetic reluctance within the motor and between the motor/platter interface.

Yes and can only be solved by a coreless motor design...everything else is lipstick on the pig. The Japanese (and at least one German company) figured this out already in the 1970s. Anyone who uses a motor that cogs in 2023 either is A) making a belt drive or B) hasn't done much research into this topic.

Brinkmann also got wise and started using coreless motors with their belt drive TTs as well as their DD TTs.

 

[morricab]

Actually Mike, it did help me determine better performance: speed performance. I really like the device because it is very accurate for speed, quick and easy to use. What is also showed is that there is more to great sound than just speed performance. We found that out with the Japanese DD tables from the 1980s. The SME simply sounded better to us despite it having less accurate and stable speed.

The Timeline is good because you can measure the platter speed while playing a record. This shows the effect of stylus drag. One revolution at 33.333 rpm is 1.8 seconds. The timeline blinks six times in that interval. There are six (6) dashes spread around the perimeter of the room at equal intervals. If you look at one dash on the wall, if there is any wow in flutter, the length of the dash fluctuates. Very steady speed shows a dash which is the same dimension (length) and remains precisely located (does not move) and very consistent across the room. Very few turntables can demonstrate this. It shows speed accuracy by indicating whether or not the dash moves forward or backward from a set location at a given distance away from the turntable, and it shows consistency by the size of the dash.

Putting this device on various turntables at dealerships or at an audio show can be very humbling. I went into a dealership did not allow me to use the device at all on any of their turntables.

People can certainly dismiss it. Some turntables which indicate speed showed 33.3. Other show 33.33. In some show 33.333.

The Timeline output of my table is now like that of the DD Technics SP10 III, very steady and stable, but they sound very different as would be expected.

The Technics, although somewhat iconic, was not at all the best of the Japanese DD TTs from that era. It used a motor that cogged (i.e. it had an iron core), whereas Pioneer (Exclusive), Yamaha, Nakamichi, Kenwood etc. had moved in the late 70s to coreless motors and very sophisticated control circuitry...the Technics was rather crude by comparison. You might have noticed though that the NEW Technics TTs use coreless motors...so they learned...40 years later.

 

[morricab]

To my understanding for this topic, accuracy and stability are not the same property or attribute. Accuracy refers to speed measurement at a given point in time -- the closer the platter turns at 33? rpm the more accurate it is. Stability (or steadiness) refers to speed consistency across time. The more often a table's speed deviates from pitch perfect 33? rpm, the less stable it is. Peak deviation can be expressed as parts per million.

When I write about this I use the phrase 'stable accuracy'.

Imo measurement of the platter itself is preferred to visual measurement or gyroscopes, for example by reading marks on an encoder ring at the platter's circumference. A high read rate with the ability of a controller to act on it is preferred.

It is often claimed that stability fluctuation is more audible than speed error.

Yes, and this is why some companies like Kenwood, developed nested loops that were "soft" in their correction parameters in order to not be too aggressive in speed correction. The focus was on accuracy sure but also on relative slow changes that are less perceptible and promote overall speed stability over time.

I know your TT uses optical encoding speed control but what do you know about the actual algorithms that regulate those signals?

 

[tima]

I know your TT uses optical encoding speed control but what do you know about the actual algorithms that regulate those signals?

I'm under NDA. I believe they are written in machine code / assembler but otherwise the algorithms themselves and reading the encoder are proprietary.

 

[morricab]

the T1 speed read out goes to xx.xx.

i've seen Fremer's measurements, but they are not mine to share. you already know i'm not measuring sh*t.

only played with it twice, it's like what Fremer writes.

there is a dial with 20 steps, 4 full turns (4 x 20 = 80 steps) moves the distance 1mm, which is the total distance of adjustment. farther out is more like belt drive, a bit more spacious and laid back, then closest is a bit more torque, focused and dynamic, more like direct drive. the middle seems more idler to me, especially past center. based on my experience with different drive types.

these are very nuanced differences. nothing that jumps out. but they are musically significant. they do not effect speed or steadiness.

with only a little playing around, i prefer 2/3rds toward closer. 52 of 80 steps. only used a few cuts to investigate. but i expect in the future to play around with it more. i could see using more varied types of music to see of this setting is best when i am in the mood to go there.

i love how it sounds.

i could see maybe adjusting it for different types of music, but unlikely i would do that. but it would be a reasonable thing to do. it's very easy and precise to adjust. as long as you keep track of where you are. if you do lose track it's not a big deal to re-boot back to zero and then do it again. there is a process.

It is changing the force the magnet applies to the platter "gear". This means then that the acceleration applied to the platter gear increases and therefore the instantaneous velocity is higher than when the magnetic drive is further away. I would argue that this would INCREASE speed instability on the micro time scale and would start to override whatever smoothing is being gained from the inertia of the high mass platter.

The "softer" force would allow the platter to better smooth the sound (perhaps the motor even "slips" a bit at the furthest settings and the platter coasts a bit?) as inertia might dominate the tug of forces. Move that motor close (magnetic field strength changes as the cube of distance) and then it will be much more in control of the proceedings and I would guess platter mass doesn't matter much.

 

[microstrip]

To my understanding for this topic, accuracy and stability are not the same property or attribute. Accuracy refers to speed measurement at a given point in time -- the closer the platter turns at 33? rpm the more accurate it is. Stability (or steadiness) refers to speed consistency across time. The more often a table's speed deviates from pitch perfect 33? rpm, the less stable it is. Peak deviation can be expressed as parts per million. When I write about this I use the phrase 'stable accuracy'.

It is curious that in instrumentation we used two precise words to address these properties - accuracy and precision. It is clearly defined and anyone can get its correct meaning in two seconds. Surely everyone defining their particular terms gives us long and recurrent threads ...

IMO extreme accuracy per se is not an interesting aspect, although sometimes high precision - less fluctuation - is associated to high accuracy and many people simply wrongly associate both.

Imo measurement of the platter itself is preferred to visual measurement or gyroscopes, for example by reading marks on an encoder ring at the platter's circumference. A high read rate with the ability of a controller to act on it is preferred.

Preferred for what?

It is often claimed that stability fluctuation is more audible than speed error.

If accuracy now becomes speed error, surely yes. Some top tape machines used to cut vinyl had a tape accuracy accuracy of .2%. and tape slip of .1%. No one seems to complain on it.

 

[mtemur]

I measured wow&flutter of a couple of turntables over the years using different test records, software and apps. IMHO the reliable and serious measuring is AES standard.

I measured two different SME 30/12 turntables couple of times and the W&F results are between %0.1-0.12AES. Which is not great but not bad either, no suprise SME replaced the motor in the upgraded version. I agree with @PeterA about the sound of SME 30/12. It sounds good to my ears and I prefer it over any better measuring DD. There is something more than W&F measurements that gives a turntable it’s distinctive sound.

I measured a couple of old and new DD turntables and IME DD never measures the best but very close to best. It’s design enabling DD to easily come close to the best but also keeping it away from reaching (of course I might be wrong). I measured new and improved Technics SL-1200G. W&F is around 0.075AES. It’s not SL-1200GR which is the new example of old SL-1200. It’s the expensive one, SL-1200G but it measures worse than old SL-1200. BTW old SL-1200 measures around 0.06AES. I agree with @morricab about Exclusive DD being better than Technics. I haven’t yet measured Exclusive P3a but I will do it soon. Exclusive P10 and Pioneer PL70 II measures around 0.05-0.055AES which is the best I have seen so far from a DD. I measured Brinkmann Balance too. I couldn’t remember but it was good.

IME belt drive, high mass platter, very slightly controlled or not controlled DC motor gives the best results which are around 0.04-0.05AES. Beyond measurements I like ease of flow and dynamics of a high mass platter with very little intervention of motor. I read that Esoteric T1’s W&F figure is 0.06 which makes me think it’s measured in AES. I’m not sure but if it’s 0.06AES it makes sense to be on par with DD. In that case I agree with @Mike Lavigne it’s good enough in terms of W&F.

 

[morricab]

I measured wow&flutter of a couple of turntables over the years using different test records, software and apps. IMHO the reliable and serious measuring is AES standard.

I measured two different SME 30/12 turntables couple of times and the W&F results are between %0.1-0.12AES. Which is not great but not bad either, no suprise SME replaced the motor in the upgraded version. I agree with @PeterA about the sound of SME 30/12. It sounds good to my ears and I prefer it over any better measuring DD. There is something more than W&F measurements that gives a turntable it’s distinctive sound.

I measured a couple of old and new DD turntables and IME DD never measures the best but very close to best. It’s design enabling DD to easily come close to the best but also keeping it away from reaching (of course I might be wrong). I measured new and improved Technics SL-1200G. W&F is around 0.075AES. It’s not SL-1200GR which is the new example of old SL-1200. It’s the expensive one, SL-1200G but it measures worse than old SL-1200. BTW old SL-1200 measures around 0.06AES. I agree with @morricab about Exclusive DD being better than Technics. I haven’t yet measured Exclusive P3a but I will do it soon. Exclusive P10 and Pioneer PL70 II measures around 0.05-0.055AES which is the best I have seen so far from a DD. I measured Brinkmann Balance too. I couldn’t remember but it was good.

IME belt drive, high mass platter, very slightly controlled or not controlled DC motor gives the best results which are around 0.04-0.05AES. Beyond measurements I like ease of flow and dynamics of a high mass platter with very little intervention of motor. I read that Esoteric T1’s W&F figure is 0.06 which makes me think it’s measured in AES. I’m not sure but if it’s 0.06AES it makes sense to be on par with DD. In that case I agree with @Mike Lavigne it’s good enough in terms of W&F.

Yamaha GT-2000 is spec'd even better than the Exclusive P10. Great sounding TT too!

 

[mtemur]

Yamaha GT-2000 is spec'd even better than the Exclusive P10. Great sounding TT too!

I should have done it by now but next time I visit my friend I will measure it. On the other hand I don’t think it (Yamaha GT-2000) or Sony PS-X9 are any better than Exclusive P10, especially the tonearm but you can never know. IMHO Exclusive P3 is better than all.

 

[morricab]

I should have done it by now but next time I visit my friend I will measure it. On the other hand I don’t think it (Yamaha GT-2000) or Sony PS-X9 are any better than Exclusive P10, especially the tonearm but you can never know. IMHO Exclusive P3 is better than all.

Could be…that’s one I haven’t heard.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I should have done it by now but next time I visit my friend I will measure it. On the other hand I don’t think it (Yamaha GT-2000) or Sony PS-X9 are any better than Exclusive P10, especially the tonearm but you can never know. IMHO Exclusive P3 is better than all.

You forget the king of direct drives denons answer

Denon DP-100 on thevintageknob.org

vintage Denon broadcast and audiophile 48kg turntable with AU-169 motor and optional Dynamic Servo Tracer tonearm but WITHOUT the DK-1000 plinth

www.thevintageknob.org

Only 50 pieces made arround 8k€ used

Correct 250 pieces

 

[mtemur]

You forget the king of direct drives denons answer

Denon DP-100 on thevintageknob.org

vintage Denon broadcast and audiophile 48kg turntable with AU-169 motor and optional Dynamic Servo Tracer tonearm but WITHOUT the DK-1000 plinth

www.thevintageknob.org

Only 50 pieces made arround 8k€ used

Correct 250 pieces

It (Denon DP-100) may be great or not. Don't judge by specs. For example a friend used to have a Nakamichi TX-1000 together with AT vacuum mat but it's sound was pretty mediocre. It was equipped with SME 3012R and Audiocraft 3000 arms. I listened to it many many times and my friend's Sota Sapphire with Jelco arm was sounding much better. He was also preferring Sota and sold Nakamichi after a couple of years. Admittedly it was a joy to watch the centering mechanism doing it's job.

 

[DasguteOhr]

It (Denon DP-100) may be great or not. Don't judge by specs. For example a friend used to have a Nakamichi TX-1000 together with AT vacuum mat but it's sound was pretty mediocre. It was equipped with SME 3012R and Audiocraft 3000 arms. I listened to it many many times and my friend's Sota Sapphire with Jelco arm was sounding much better. He was also preferring Sota and sold Nakamichi after a couple of years. Admittedly it was a joy to watch the centering mechanism doing it's job.

View attachment 115075

the denon is a masterpiece. the servo tracer tonearm alone is exceptional. you could adjust the resonance frequency tonearm for allmost every cartridge .you can see that in the video controll knobs on the right side.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

can we switch back to Esoteric T1 related posts? or at least trend that way or relate other tt's to the T1.

just a mild suggestion.

vintage DD tt's is a very interesting subject, but that is not this thread.

 

[Lagonda]

Really appreciate your participation here - so many nuggets to glean

Bill once talked me trough measuring and changing a micro resistor on a circuit board, so i could access a unused feature in the AS 2000 controller ! And i am useless when it comes to electronics, and all thumbs ! A very knowledgeable man with great patience.

 

[morricab]

the denon is a masterpiece. the servo tracer tonearm alone is exceptional. you could adjust the resonance frequency tonearm for allmost every cartridge .you can see that in the video controll knobs on the right side.

Motor is not coreless though…

 

[Lee]

the T1 speed read out goes to xx.xx.

i've seen Fremer's measurements, but they are not mine to share. you already know i'm not measuring sh*t.

only played with it twice, it's like what Fremer writes.

there is a dial with 20 steps, 4 full turns (4 x 20 = 80 steps) moves the distance 1mm, which is the total distance of adjustment. farther out is more like belt drive, a bit more spacious and laid back, then closest is a bit more torque, focused and dynamic, more like direct drive. the middle seems more idler to me, especially past center. based on my experience with different drive types.

these are very nuanced differences. nothing that jumps out. but they are musically significant. they do not effect speed or steadiness.

with only a little playing around, i prefer 2/3rds toward closer. 52 of 80 steps. only used a few cuts to investigate. but i expect in the future to play around with it more. i could see using more varied types of music to see of this setting is best when i am in the mood to go there.

i love how it sounds.

i could see maybe adjusting it for different types of music, but unlikely i would do that. but it would be a reasonable thing to do. it's very easy and precise to adjust. as long as you keep track of where you are. if you do lose track it's not a big deal to re-boot back to zero and then do it again. there is a process.

Mike,

Not sure if this is helpful but Mike Burns of Wolfsong Audio, my setup guy, uses an app that allows him to place his iPhone on the platter and it registers the precise table speed.

My great suspicion is that this would be something Esoteric would excel at given their well-regarded digital and master clock heritage.

 

[microstrip]

yes. Phoenix Engineering asked some very interesting questions about cogging with the Esoteric. I would like to see a video of the drive mechanism and slotted platter during turn on until it is up to speed and learn more about the sonic effect of changing the distance between the two.

Curious that you ask technical details and videos about the Esoteric and always refused to share details or insided pictures of your own turntable.

Manufactures keep a lot of information to themselves and that is understandable.

Yes, but commonly they show us many internal photos and even diagrams, surely keeping the unique proprietary aspects of the equipment.