DSD to Vinyl Versus Analog Tape to Vinyl

[Rensselaer]

Well, in those 20 years Mike has changed at least 5 times from one top level DAC to the next, IIRC saying that with the MSB Select II DAC the sound of digital has changed beyond what he thought was possible. So yes, the sound of digital has changed for him a lot, too, in those 20 years.

If on the other hand Mike means that digital will never "reach" analog -- well, that's exactly how it is supposed to be. Digital never wanted to emulate analog. As you say:

"Analog and digital are technically very different, that results in significant objective and subjective differences."

Also, given that people change vinyl playback cartridges for different flavors, how could digital ever emulate the ever changing flavors of vinyl playback?

Mike has three turntables. Which one of these should digital emulate?

My opinion is unsolicited, sorry, but as to your last question " ... given that people change vinyl playback cartridges for different flavours, how could digital ever emulate the ever changing flavours of vinyl playback? Mike has three turntables. Which one of these should digital emulate?"

Disregarding that the intent of that question was purely rhetorical, the answer is whichever turntable (cartridge) combination sounds most like real musicians and instruments playing live in the listening room.

 

[tima]

I agree with several elements of your rebuttal. But I think it is a bit of a spurious argument to ask which specific idiosyncratic analog "flavor" should digital in general try to emulate?

I think people who prefer analog would suggest that digital should emulate the overall organic-ness and natural flow of analog, and not target a particular frequency response "flavor."

Ron, I think you're responding to the wrong guy.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
Also, given that people change vinyl playback cartridges for different flavors, how could digital ever emulate the ever changing flavors of vinyl playback?

Mike has three turntables. Which one of these should digital emulate?

I agree with several elements of your rebuttal. But I think it is a bit of a spurious argument to ask which specific idiosyncratic analog "flavor" should digital in general try to emulate?

I think people who prefer analog would suggest that digital should emulate the overall organic-ness and natural flow of analog, and not target a particular frequency response "flavor."

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I think you're responding to the wrong guy.

Corrected. Thank you.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well, in those 20 years Mike has changed at least 5 times from one top level DAC to the next, IIRC saying that with the MSB Select II DAC the sound of digital has changed beyond what he thought was possible. So yes, the sound of digital has changed for him a lot, too, in those 20 years.

If on the other hand Mike means that digital will never "reach" analog -- well, that's exactly how it is supposed to be. Digital never wanted to emulate analog. As you say:

"Analog and digital are technically very different, that results in significant objective and subjective differences."

digital has no say in what i want from it......although each digital designer i'm sure has their own reference. i'm free to use my vinyl and tape as my target reference and i do. once i moved on from my 9 year digital player the Playback Designs it was a winding road to get to my current spot. i do agree that i don't 'expect' digital to actually reach analog.....and i'm fine with that. i'm more than satisfied with the whole of my digital music experience. the trade-offs with analog cause me to do digital 70%+ of my listening time.

Also, given that people change vinyl playback cartridges for different flavors, how could digital ever emulate the ever changing flavors of vinyl playback?

Mike has three turntables. Which one of these should digital emulate?

just read any Lampizator dac tube rolling thread. quite a few flavors going on. and many of those also own multiple dacs. and maybe servers and transports and streaming. it's not as much a thing as vinyl flavors, but i think that's because the process of reading one's and zero's is not as variable and commonly broken down into pieces like analog.

if the established/main stream way of approaching digital was broken down into smaller steps and you could mix and match input stages, dac chips, memory, and output stages, etc.......then the whole flavor thing would be more up front. some of the DYI computer audio sites approach that type thinking.

i also 'believe' that the fundamental data present in digitial at the ceiling, does not play to bringing sufficient satisfaction in messing with it. and, of course, tt's and tape deck's are cool to touch and play with. digital? not so much.

YMMV.

 

[audioguy]

A word of advise, if your Primary objective or desire is for a physically immersive sound experience, then you may want to consider assembling a high-performance home theater system for music playback as you will find that the synthesized 9 to 17 channels can provide an experience beyond what I have found the highest performing two channel systems can deliver. I came to this personal understanding due to the current COVID pandemic; since my wife and I have been spending more time at home because of the current state of affairs, I went “whole hog” in redoing our home theater system for my wife with some of my highest caliber electronics and speakers, including Orpheus Labs, BSC, Genesis Technologies, LampizatOr, Mark Levinson, Plinius and Electron-Kinetics electronics with Wilson Audio and Verity Audio speakers and subwoofers. I assembled this system to stream movies and shows with my wife, but when my wife was not available or interested in watching I began watching Blu-Ray and DVD concert videos and ultimately streaming Tidal and playing CD’s, DVD-Audio, SACD and Blu-Ray Audio discs and testing the music with the different synthesized sound profiles and to my surprise the experience has been not only high-quality, not unexpected given the high caliber of gear used, but the immersive experience definitely adds to the overall enjoyment of the music as there is just not only a frontal image to focus on or video to be distracted by. It is a more casual and enjoyable listening experience as opposed to the more formal critical listening approach with my two-channel high-end systems. it has turned out to be a fun project that is more inclusive, with the wife and family, than my reference 2-channel systems will ever be. I know that years ago this would have been blasphemy and utter heresy, but I have nothing to prove and no one to impress.

I'm in your camp.

I spent over 40 years in the two channel only camp, and spent untold sums of money attempting to reach "audio Nirvana" (whatever that is). I used to think that a great two channel system could easily create the equivalent of the live experience of a small jazz trio - that is until my wife hired one to play in our home on a past birthday. It was then I finally realized there was no system in the universe that can replicate LIVE, regardless of how much money and effort I poured into it.

While it has happened over time (and being OK with giving up my audiophile card, particularly since I was using the totally unacceptable thing called "digital room correction" via my Trinnov), I now only listen to music on a multi-channel system, that has been seriously upgraded in the last 6 months to use all Line Source speakers in the room (Wisdom Audio). Does it recreate LIVE? Not even close but what is does do is create a listening environment that more closely resembles what a live performance might "feel like" when compared to my 2 channel days.

I have a good friend who has a Magico/Spectral 2 channel system that was one of the 2 or 3 best 2 channel systems I had/have ever heard. After having lived with my new system for a few months, I paid him a visit and instantly recalled why I love his system so much. The detail, clarity, imaging is just fantastic. But, when compared to the "experience" I have in my room, it "felt" very 2 dimensional. And while I have no doubt he would never do what I have done, his first response when he came to listen in my new room was: "Wow!. My system won't do that".

And I could care less if the music source (all digital now) is streamed, or from a shiny disc; 24/192 or 16/44. This system along with my ripped music files, Roon and Qobuz have me listening to more music of all types than ever before and by a huge margin. Once I quit thinking about the gear and what technological "thingie" I could add to or replace in my system or how can I improve imaging or ......, it became all about the music. This is what I call audio Nirvana.

FWIW, I had tried this "experiment" with other speakers, the most recent prior to my Wisdoms being Triad, and while being excellent, it lacked the magic that is only possible with a true all line source listening environment. It is impossible to describe how different it sounds when compared to point source speakers. One really needs to experience it.

I have no doubt I am in the tiniest of minorities on this matter (at least on this forum), but that is OK. I am still of the belief that "personal preference" is the far greater driver of our listening environment equipment choices than anything else and by a large amount. It's all about what version of "far less than perfect" we are willing to or PREFER to live with.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i'm on the dsp multi-channel (9.3.6) Trinnov band wagon too in my Home Theater. love it for movies and lots of streaming video.

not played around much with dsp music only.......yet. my music itch is with my 2 channel big rig dedicated room. but i have no doubt that a serious dsp effort such as Audioguy's (he has very serious Wisdom multi-channel speakers) can rock your music world.

 

[audioguy]

Mike, as I said, it's all about what version of imperfect we want to live with - and there is no right answer. Has Adam done his magic in your theater yet?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, as I said, it's all about what version of imperfect we want to live with - and there is no right answer. Has Adam done his magic in your theater yet?

Chuck,

i'm slow walking my HT set-up efforts for now, as i'm not sure whether i want to maintain the large home and barn i'm in during pending retirement. so the HT just has my own rough set-up at the moment.

9 months ago when i invested in upgrading my HT, i had not even thought about moving.

'Adam' is still on my agenda once i decide my long term direction. leaning toward staying at the moment.......but ask me tomorrow.

 

[Rensselaer]

I agree with several elements of your rebuttal. But I think it is a bit of a spurious argument to ask which specific idiosyncratic analog "flavor" should digital in general try to emulate?

I think people who prefer analog would suggest that digital should emulate the overall organic-ness and natural flow of analog, and not target a particular frequency response "flavor."

I agree that I prefer analog because of the "overall organic-ness" of it. I can hear huge differences with digital to vinyl recordings (which sound a bit sterile and not organic to me, but I understand that such is the way of the future) and this trait seems to occur even when the digital input is very limited.

For example; I purchased the "Directly Cut to Vinyl" Vivaldi's Four Seasons (VALDC001) from Chasing the Dragon as an example of what their other "Directly Cut to Vinyl" records would sound like before buying the lot (hard to find unadulterated analogue these days). I assumed it would sound amazing on my system but it didn't. The sound-stage was non-existent (an indistinct blob between the speakers only) and the sound quality sounded like a digital recording and not the direct-to-disc analogue recording I thought I was purchasing. As I said in an earlier posting, I compared it with The Four Seasons by Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields on Super Analogue (KIJC9148) for my nephew so that he could hear the difference before getting into this hobby as deeply as I, and it couldn't hold a candle to the Super Analogue recording.

I was confused as to why a direct-to-disc recording would sound worse than a strictly analogue recording (not direct-to-dic) so I wrote to Chasing the Dragon and received a response from Owner/Producer Mike Valentine himself.

Mike explained that the photo in the album shows how the microphones were placed (over the heads of the performers in a circle, hence no discernible soundstage), done with AKG C12 microphones, Nordost cabling, Focusrite 20-year-old mic preamps and processed in a modified Neve desk at Air studios (I believe the Neve console processes in the digital domain but am unsure so please educate me).

He adds; "Here is something interesting. Neither the Vivaldi in Venice nor the Bach Cello Suites recordings were direct cut, but were recorded directly onto reel to reel at 15ips, with digital backup (separately buffered)." ... "Our Vivaldi in Venice has been used by many reviewers including, Robert Harley of the Absolute Sound, again he infers that it is one of the finest Vivaldi recordings of the modern age."

Which brings me to the segue; the only LPs that I own that are (and sound) purely analogue are those made before 1980 and those still made by very few specialist producers like Analogue Productions (which are not cheap). Those recordings and the artists who made them are virtually unknown by the majority of people under the age of 50. I fear that my very expensive music playback system, and accompanying analogue-only records, are not going to sell when I go. That nobody, except perhaps a museum dedicated to the history of music recording and playback, will know or care about what we of a certain age grew up with and enjoyed. I keep picturing in my mind my wife (if she survives me) hauling it all in the back of her car to the dump.

Does anyone else out there feel that we are at the end of an era?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

buy every Fone pressing you can get for current all analog choices. i own 40-50 of them. listen to them often. the 4 Season's is great.

Fonè Records | High Quality Recordings

Fonè records, High quality recordings label. Classic, Jazz, Pop, Vocal. More than 200 titles. Enjoy fonè online shop

foneshop.it

and they sound......analog. only 496 pressings of each. can't go wrong. a few are digitally recorded but then transferred to tape, but only a few.

you can also buy the tapes, although so far i've not done that.

 

[Rensselaer]

buy every Fone pressing you can get for current all analog choices. i own 40-50 of them. listen to them often. the 4 Season's is great.

Fonè Records | High Quality Recordings

Fonè records, High quality recordings label. Classic, Jazz, Pop, Vocal. More than 200 titles. Enjoy fonè online shop

foneshop.it

and they sound......analog. only 496 pressings of each. can't go wrong. a few are digitally recorded but then transferred to tape, but only a few.

you can also buy the tapes, although so far i've not done that.

I have purchased 7 LPs from them for evaluation. Thanks for the reference

 

[Rensselaer]

I agree that I prefer analog because of the "overall organic-ness" of it. I can hear huge differences with digital to vinyl recordings (which sound a bit sterile and not organic to me, but I understand that such is the way of the future) and this trait seems to occur even when the digital input is very limited.

For example; I purchased the "Directly Cut to Vinyl" Vivaldi's Four Seasons (VALDC001) from Chasing the Dragon as an example of what their other "Directly Cut to Vinyl" records would sound like before buying the lot (hard to find unadulterated analogue these days). I assumed it would sound amazing on my system but it didn't. The sound-stage was non-existent (an indistinct blob between the speakers only) and the sound quality sounded like a digital recording and not the direct-to-disc analogue recording I thought I was purchasing. As I said in an earlier posting, I compared it with The Four Seasons by Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields on Super Analogue (KIJC9148) for my nephew so that he could hear the difference before getting into this hobby as deeply as I, and it couldn't hold a candle to the Super Analogue recording.

I was confused as to why a direct-to-disc recording would sound worse than a strictly analogue recording (not direct-to-dic) so I wrote to Chasing the Dragon and received a response from Owner/Producer Mike Valentine himself.

Mike explained that the photo in the album shows how the microphones were placed (over the heads of the performers in a circle, hence no discernible soundstage), done with AKG C12 microphones, Nordost cabling, Focusrite 20-year-old mic preamps and processed in a modified Neve desk at Air studios (I believe the Neve console processes in the digital domain but am unsure so please educate me).

He adds; "Here is something interesting. Neither the Vivaldi in Venice nor the Bach Cello Suites recordings were direct cut, but were recorded directly onto reel to reel at 15ips, with digital backup (separately buffered)." ... "Our Vivaldi in Venice has been used by many reviewers including, Robert Harley of the Absolute Sound, again he infers that it is one of the finest Vivaldi recordings of the modern age."

Which brings me to the segue; the only LPs that I own that are (and sound) purely analogue are those made before 1980 and those still made by very few specialist producers like Analogue Productions (which are not cheap). Those recordings and the artists who made them are virtually unknown by the majority of people under the age of 50. I fear that my very expensive music playback system, and accompanying analogue-only records, are not going to sell when I go. That nobody, except perhaps a museum dedicated to the history of music recording and playback, will know or care about what we of a certain age grew up with and enjoyed. I keep picturing in my mind my wife (if she survives me) hauling it all in the back of her car to the dump.

Does anyone else out there feel that we are at the end of an era?

Unless record producers realise that it is pure analogue recording done with valves that make vinyl records unassailable and go back to using such with contemporary musicians and singers, the humble LP will surely go the way of the Dodo.

 

[peelaaa]

Unless record producers realise that it is pure analogue recording done with valves that make vinyl records unassailable and go back to using such with contemporary musicians and singers, the humble LP will surely go the way of the Dodo.

Similar words could have been said back in mid 80s when cd was making its mark. Yet here we are again listening to vinyl and cd is old hat.
Is streaming the next format that will finish off all others (for a few years until next big thing?)

 

[Rensselaer]

Similar words could have been said back in mid 80s when cd was making its mark. Yet here we are again listening to vinyl and cd is old hat.
Is streaming the next format that will finish off all others (for a few years until next big thing?)

sorry, I was talking about pure analogue LPs, nearly all recorded before 1980, not the ubiquitous digital to analogue LPs that they are pumping out now.

 

[Solypsa]

Unless record producers realise that it is pure analogue recording done with valves ...

AAA is good
Valves too

But getting that 'best of breed' all analog vinyl is more elusive than bringing a Studer or ATR to the recording sesssion. The human element is also a large factor ( outside the specific topic at hand yet related )

 

[Al M.]

I agree that I prefer analog because of the "overall organic-ness" of it. I can hear huge differences with digital to vinyl recordings (which sound a bit sterile and not organic to me, but I understand that such is the way of the future) and this trait seems to occur even when the digital input is very limited.

That's funny, sterile? Tell this to my ever-excited self, who gets a kick out of listening to his highly engaging, very lively, digital-based system every night. Including with foot-tapping, depending on the music. But maybe my DAC is better than the ones used to make digital to vinyl recordings, who knows.

For example; I purchased the "Directly Cut to Vinyl" Vivaldi's Four Seasons (VALDC001) from Chasing the Dragon as an example of what their other "Directly Cut to Vinyl" records would sound like before buying the lot (hard to find unadulterated analogue these days). I assumed it would sound amazing on my system but it didn't. The sound-stage was non-existent (an indistinct blob between the speakers only) and the sound quality sounded like a digital recording and not the direct-to-disc analogue recording I thought I was purchasing. As I said in an earlier posting, I compared it with The Four Seasons by Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields on Super Analogue (KIJC9148) for my nephew so that he could hear the difference before getting into this hobby as deeply as I, and it couldn't hold a candle to the Super Analogue recording.

I was confused as to why a direct-to-disc recording would sound worse than a strictly analogue recording (not direct-to-dic) so I wrote to Chasing the Dragon and received a response from Owner/Producer Mike Valentine himself.

Mike explained that the photo in the album shows how the microphones were placed (over the heads of the performers in a circle, hence no discernible soundstage), done with AKG C12 microphones, Nordost cabling, Focusrite 20-year-old mic preamps and processed in a modified Neve desk at Air studios (I believe the Neve console processes in the digital domain but am unsure so please educate me).

He adds; "Here is something interesting. Neither the Vivaldi in Venice nor the Bach Cello Suites recordings were direct cut, but were recorded directly onto reel to reel at 15ips, with digital backup (separately buffered)." ... "Our Vivaldi in Venice has been used by many reviewers including, Robert Harley of the Absolute Sound, again he infers that it is one of the finest Vivaldi recordings of the modern age."

Which brings me to the segue; the only LPs that I own that are (and sound) purely analogue are those made before 1980 and those still made by very few specialist producers like Analogue Productions (which are not cheap). Those recordings and the artists who made them are virtually unknown by the majority of people under the age of 50. I fear that my very expensive music playback system, and accompanying analogue-only records, are not going to sell when I go. That nobody, except perhaps a museum dedicated to the history of music recording and playback, will know or care about what we of a certain age grew up with and enjoyed. I keep picturing in my mind my wife (if she survives me) hauling it all in the back of her car to the dump.

Does anyone else out there feel that we are at the end of an era?

Do you really want to go down the road of the soundstage argument? That argument -- really?

Maybe in this particular modern recording there was no soundstage, but I have a quite large number of modern recordings -- digital recordings -- that have a great soundstage, with distinction, layering, depth and engaging spatial ambience. In fact, my soundstage has been the envy of some vinyl-loving friends for quite some time now. But I'll admit, I also have the luxury of a room that participates in the effort (after a lot of acoustic fine-tuning) and the ability to set up my speakers far from the front wall. That helps, no doubt.

 

[Rensselaer]

That's funny, sterile? Tell this to my ever-excited self, who gets a kick out of listening to his highly engaging, very lively, digital-based system every night. Including with foot-tapping, depending on the music. But maybe my DAC is better than the ones used to make digital to vinyl recordings, who knows.



Do you really want to go down the road of the soundstage argument? That argument -- really?

Maybe in this particular modern recording there was no soundstage, but I have a quite large number of modern recordings -- digital recordings -- that have a great soundstage, with distinction, layering, depth and engaging spatial ambience. In fact, my soundstage has been the envy of some vinyl-loving friends for quite some time now. But I'll admit, I also have the luxury of a room that participates in the effort (after a lot of acoustic fine-tuning) and the ability to set up my speakers far from the front wall. That helps, no doubt.

Whoa sonny! Climb down and read my comments again, carefully, and you will see that I was describing the sound stage of a specific LP and not to digital in general. As to whether digital-to-vinyl recordings generally show more sound stage than pre 1980 LPs, I wouldn't know, and as to the sound of digital music that is played from other source (ie. not transferred to vinyl), that is a question for a different thread.

The only thing I can testify to here is that nearly all of my pre-1980 pure analogue LPs put out a soothing organic sound, like real instruments, allowing me to relax and nearly suspend my disbelief that it isn't live, whereas with my digital-to-vinyl recordings, on my system, it is always obvious that the sound is not organic but quite artificial, (however I did say previously on this website that one low-serial numbered specialist recording by Audio Nautes that I own did come close, but even it was still recognisable as digitally-sourced).

 

[audioguy]

Chuck,

i'm slow walking my HT set-up efforts for now, as i'm not sure whether i want to maintain the large home and barn i'm in during pending retirement. so the HT just has my own rough set-up at the moment.

9 months ago when i invested in upgrading my HT, i had not even thought about moving.

'Adam' is still on my agenda once i decide my long term direction. leaning toward staying at the moment.......but ask me tomorrow.

I get the downsizing. We did that when I retired. It had little to do with money but lots to do with just the upkeep of so much square footage, too many rooms that got so little use AND wanting to get out of Atlanta traffic (THAT turned out to be the best part). You'll figure it all out.

 

[Rensselaer]

buy every Fone pressing you can get for current all analog choices. i own 40-50 of them. listen to them often. the 4 Season's is great.

Fonè Records | High Quality Recordings

Fonè records, High quality recordings label. Classic, Jazz, Pop, Vocal. More than 200 titles. Enjoy fonè online shop

foneshop.it

and they sound......analog. only 496 pressings of each. can't go wrong. a few are digitally recorded but then transferred to tape, but only a few.

you can also buy the tapes, although so far i've not done that.

Hey Mike,

Excellent referral, thank you very much. I received those first 7 Fone records a week ago, cleaned and played each and before finishing the 7th I ordered half a dozen more, which arrived today. I really enjoyed the well-known jazz covers played by Scott Hamilton and Paolo Birro on "Pure Imagination" and "More Pure Imagination" LPs. Sounds like I sitting there in some piano jazz bar listening live (a glass of Scotch in front of me adds to the effect). I am just cleaning the new arrivals and will start serious listening to those tonight.

Thanks again,