DSD comparison to PCM.

[edorr]

OK Mani, your opinion is duly noted. I will let Bruce chime in on your recording/playback chain as I believe that Bruce just heard the Phasure DAC and put it up for sale. I have said this before and I will say it again, I think that compared to DSD, PCM sounds wowie-zowie. And by that I mean that the dynamics appear to be exaggerated compared to DSD and they will quickly wear on your nerves because the dynamics come at the expense of the music itself which to me sounds threadbare compared to DSD. I don't need to hear thundering bass and screaming highs in order to be impressed and think that PCM "trounced" DSD.

As for hearing "massive, massive" problems on the top end of DSD, I have no idea what comprises the rest of your system for you to make that statement.

Mep, you are dismissing Mani's observation and preference for PCM as based on an alleged preference for "thundering bass and screaming highs", or something in "the rest of his system". What is the point of even discussing the topic if observation / preferences dissimilar to your own are dismissed out of hand as being misguided?

Not terribly open minded, and also mildly patronizing IMO.....

 

[microstrip]

I believe they were using the Audio Research CD8 but you would have to ask them.

Bruce,
Great to know the details. But is was not the CD8 - the CD8 is just a CD player, it has no digital input. If it was the DAC8, although it has HIREZ PCM capability, IMHO it sounds inferior to the CD8 that it is sometimes shown in the Wilson listening room.

 

[Bruce B]

Yep, I prefer PCM over DSD.

A few months ago I embarked on a project to digitize some of the rarer and more expensive vinyl that I have. I set up a small 'studio' with both DSD and PCM recording capability. (Incidentally, the 'studio' has been built around a Faraday cage, has two 5KVA balanced transformers and an isolated 5-Ohm earthing system. Where possible, all equipment power supplies sit outside the 'studio' to minimise RFI.)

I really didn't want to record everything twice, so first went about figuring out whether I'd go for DSD or PCM. I tried DSD64 on the Tascam DV-RA1000HD [multi-bit S-D ADC], DSD128 on the KORG MR1000 [true 1-bit S-D ADC] (with Paul Hynes linear PS) and PCM24/192 on the Pacific Microsonics Model Two [true multi-bit non-oversampling ADC @4fs rates].

Played back on the Mytek DAC [multi-bit S-D DAC] (using HQPlayer set to DirectSDM), the DSD files sounded better than the PCM files. However, played back on a Phasure NOS1 DAC [true multi-bit non-oversampling DAC] (using XXHighEnd) the PCM files trounced the DSD files (obviously still being played back on the Mytek).

I would hardly think this a fair contest.... PM2 against a Tascam and Korg for recording? You want a fair fight, use a Grimm or EMM Labs. I used a PM2 against my DAD AX24 on the FIM Fukamachi recording and Winston chose the AX24 files. I feel the PM2 over emphasises the bass. Maybe that's a result of using HDCD. Don't know.

Yes, the Phasure is on it's way to the new owner. Don't know what all the hype is about.....

I might take the Tascam off your hands though!!

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce,
Great to know the details. But is was not the CD8 - the CD8 is just a CD player, it has no digital input. If it was the DAC8, although it has HIREZ PCM capability, IMHO it sounds inferior to the CD8 that it is sometimes shown in the Wilson listening room.

Well like I said... I don't know, maybe it was the DAC8. They have the Ref Anniversary 40 pre and they said they were using AR equipment.

 

[manisandher]

Hey Bruce, there's no HDCD processing with the PM2 set to 24/192... you should know that.

The Phasure NOS1 is easily the best DAC I've ever heard. No, I'm not going to list all the DACs I've ever heard because ultimately it's a futile exercise. Everyone to his/her own.

On a final note:

Look, I have nothing to gain or lose by contributing to this thread. I don't get paid for converting SACDs to downloadable DSD or 24/96 files. I was simply sharing my experience. I've really, really wanted to like DSD for the last 10 years, and have actually invested quite a lot in it, including getting the PS3 working and ripping all of my 300 or so SACDs to dff/dsf. It makes so much sense to me to switch from PCM to DSD because virtually all DACs are delta-sigma nowadays anyway and using dff or dsf files, you can bypass the SDM-PCM conversion in the DAC. A really great idea.

But to my ears DSD sounds wrong. Indeed, my PCM recordings sound far truer to the source than my DSD recordings. OK, maybe a Grimm feeding the Tascam would sound better. But I don't know. I really think DSD and my ears don't match.

Mani.

 

[rbbert]

Although I am making a bit of an assumption, I doubt very much that the differences between hires PCM and DSD are the huge massive ones some posters here are claiming.

 

[Bruce B]

Although I am making a bit of an assumption, I doubt very much that the differences between hires PCM and DSD are the huge massive ones some posters here are claiming.

No it's not, but when you want the very best, that last 5% counts!

 

[mep]

Mep, you are dismissing Mani's observation and preference for PCM as based on an alleged preference for "thundering bass and screaming highs", or something in "the rest of his system". What is the point of even discussing the topic if observation / preferences dissimilar to your own are dismissed out of hand as being misguided?

Not terribly open minded, and also mildly patronizing IMO.....

Edorr-You opinion of my response may be right on the money for a number of reasons. Way prior to Mani, I have clearly stated on several occasions that I thought that PCM sounded "wowie-zowie" compared to DSD. If I think that DSD sounds "right" on the high-end and you or someone else thinks that DSD has "massive, massive" problems on the high-end, I think it is only fair to wonder what makes up the rest of their system in order to make a statement that is diametrically opposed to your own experiences based on your own system. Maybe their system is much better than my system and I'm out to lunch.

 

[TBone]

Although I am making a bit of an assumption, I doubt very much that the differences between hires PCM and DSD are the huge massive ones some posters here are claiming.

I've been reading this thread with interest only because, like Mani, I think DSD adds a softening characteristic across the entire bandwidth while PCM adds a harder perhaps more "dynamic" type quality to the overall music. That said, I've heard SACD reissues sound very much like circa 1983 "clinical" PCM. Recently I auditioned the new Marantz SACD player in which it reproduced a hybrid Police album far better in CD mode than SACD, in which the SACD layer was much harder & brighter. I think native recording/playback for any digital medium will generally produce the best results, while conversions from one format to another invites negative colorations.

tb1

 

[mep]

Although I am making a bit of an assumption, I doubt very much that the differences between hires PCM and DSD are the huge massive ones some posters here are claiming.

The words "huge" and "massive" probably aren't accurate descriptors. However, there is a "big" difference in my opinion between the two. One sounds relaxed and natural (and we can parse those words until the cows come home as we are wont to do), and one sounds hyped and not natural by comparison-at least to me. I know which one sounds most like great analog to my ears, and that would be DSD. For those of you who grew up on a steady diet of digital and hate all things analog, you will most probably feel differently.

 

[mep]

I've been reading this thread with interest only because, like Mani, I think DSD adds a softening characteristic across the entire bandwidth while PCM adds a harder perhaps more "dynamic" type quality to the overall music. That said, I've heard SACD reissues sound very much like circa 1983 "clinical" PCM. Recently I auditioned the new Marantz SACD player in which it reproduced a hybrid Police album far better in CD mode than SACD, in which the SACD layer was much harder & brighter. I think native recording/playback for any digital medium will generally produce the best results, while conversions from one format to another invites negative colorations.

tb1

I want to clarify something here. When I speak of listening to DSD, I don't mean via SACDs played back over an SACD/CD player even though I have three of them. I only have a few SACDs, and I never cared for the sound of any of them and quickly abandoned the idea of building up an SACD library. My opinions of DSD are strictly based on hearing DSD files stored on a hard drive played back over a laptop music server playing through a Mytek Stereo 192 DAC via balanced ICs.

 

[manisandher]

For those of you who grew up on a steady diet of digital and hate all things analog, you will most probably feel differently.

I grew up with a Pioneer PL-12D and Shure V cartridge. Today I use an SP10 with air linear tracker and London Decca Reference. I'm in the process of acquiring an EMT 927. Look, I'm an analog guy at heart.

My opinions of DSD are strictly based on hearing DSD files stored on a hard drive played back over a laptop music server playing through a Mytek Stereo 192 DAC via balanced ICs.

Yep, so are mine. Played back on the Mytek, my DSD files win over the PCM files. However, played back on a true multi-bit R2R DAC the PCM24/192 files trounce, yes trounce the DSD64 or DSD128 files in terms of likeness to the original analog.

Mani.

 

[rbbert]

...For those of you who grew up on a steady diet of digital and hate all things analog, you will most probably feel differently.

What would you recommend for those of us who grew up on a steady diet of analog and don't really care for the current state of analog or digital all that much??

 

[mep]

What would you recommend for those of us who grew up on a steady diet of analog and don't really care for the current state of analog or digital all that much??

Huh?? If you tell me that you don't like the current state of analog or digital, I'm clueless on what to recommend to you. What makes up the rest of your system? Is there a chance you don't like your system which makes you unhappy with analog and digital?

 

[mep]

I grew up with a Pioneer PL-12D and Shure V cartridge. Today I use an SP10 with air linear tracker and London Decca Reference. I'm in the process of acquiring an EMT 927. Look, I'm an analog guy at heart.



Yep, so are mine. Played back on the Mytek, my DSD files win over the PCM files. However, played back on a true multi-bit R2R DAC the PCM24/192 files trounce, yes trounce the DSD64 or DSD128 files in terms of likeness to the original analog.

Mani.

Mani-You list part of your system. Can you list the rest of it for us? What preamp, amp, phono section, and speakers are you using?

 

[rbbert]

Huh?? If you tell me that you don't like the current state of analog or digital, I'm clueless on what to recommend to you. What makes up the rest of your system? Is there a chance you don't like your system which makes you unhappy with analog and digital?

Both analog and current digital have significant sonic problems, distortions if you will since they are clearly different than live sound or even the mic feed. I think good digital's low noise and speed stability give it a theoretical edge over analog (which can never match digital in these ways), but so far it also has its own problems. Why would I want it to sound like analog, adding analog's problems to any digital already has??

 

[jkeny]

I'd like to offer my very limited & preliminary view of a DAC I recently borrowed which touches on some of the points here - a Meitner MA-1.
AFAIK, the Meitner converts all inputs into 1 bit DSD internally?
I have only had this since Sunday & maybe put in about 3-4 hours listening to it.

I am playing files off the same laptop I always use for listening so this variable is at least controlled (see below) & I'm also using Jplay as the playback software. I have not yet managed to get playback of native DSD files working with it so this view may well change when I do. I used the cables that were supplied with the DAC by the owner - a USB cable (http://ppastudio.blogspot.ie/2012/04/green-label-profess-ional-audio-grade.html) & a hefty looking power lead (don't know the origin of it)

My initial impression was - this particularly favours the mid-range side of the spectrum but it also seemed to tease out more layering in that mid-range area.
Then I discovered that the USB cable supplied with the Meitner was greatly responsible for this mid-range prominence.
I changed USB cables to my short 6 inch stock ones & the HF now returned but some of the layering seemed to be missing.
Anyway, I stuck with this set-up mostly for the rest of my listening, returning every now & then to the Green USB to check out the difference.

My impressions now were that with Oscar Peterson Trio, the piano had a perhaps a more sonorous & possibly realistic tone (I'm not a piano player so can't say for sure) to it with the notes lingering & trailing off nicely. However, it seems still to favour the mid-range detail & layering. Nothing wrong with the bass but the HF end seems subdued & as a result it can sound less dynamic than my other DACs.

This is my impression so far & it only relates to the USB input - the Meitner uses the ubiquitous XMOS chip for USB duries. The other DACs I compared it to are all S-D (my own JKDAC32 using PCM5102 DAC chip) with Naksa amplifier & the NAD C390DD digital amplifier (which uses a different approach using DDFA chips). With both of these there is definitely more HF coming through which gives the sound a more up-front, less laid back feel. Which is the correct presentation, I don't know as I don't have the original recordings to judge by. All I can say is that I seem to be missing this & I can concur, so far with Mani's view that something is missing at the top end. Could it be the XMOS chip? Could it be the PCM to DSD conversion process? I simply don't know yet.

I have briefly tried the SPDIF inputs which sound different to USB input but too soon to say what my impressions are.

I will be taking the setup to a friend's house over the weekend for more exposure to more ears & more equipment. Hopefully, I will have a better feel for the sound of this DAC after that.

Anyway, I thought I would pitch in my impressions & see how they resonated with others & also how I might get the est out of the DAC. I'm not down on DSD - I'm trying to judge it impartially.

Oh & BTW I hope to compare it to a great TT setup my friend has so this will bring another yardstick into play

 

[manisandher]

Mani-You list part of your system. Can you list the rest of it for us? What preamp, amp, phono section, and speakers are you using?

I'll probably regret this. But here you go anyway...

In the 'studio':

Phono stages:
- EAR 324
- World Designs Phono3XL
- Ray Samuels F-117
- Rotel Michi
- AQVOX

Monitoring:
- Berning Siegfried with real WE 300B tubes
- AKG K1000 headphones

In listening room (as of today, but can often change):

- Phasure NOS1 DAC
- Mytek DSD DAC
- Pass Labs X1 preamp (rarely used as DACs are usually fed directly to power amps and vol controlled losslessly in software players - much, much better SQ)
- Sauermann mono amps
- BD-Design Swing speakers

You've probably never heard of some of this stuff. Let's just say that I've had a lot of the 'regular' hi-end stuff and found most of it very, very wanting. I totally adore the sound of vinyl coming through the AKGs in my 'studio'. And what's so satisfying for me is that I can pretty much recreate that beauty through the NOS1 DAC in my listening room. (Edit: The Mytek with DSD files falls very short of this... and shorter still with the PCM files).

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

... the HF end seems subdued & as a result it can sound less dynamic than my other DACs.

And some would say that your other DACs are at fault, 'distorting' the sound in some way. OK, but when you have the original analog to hand (which I do), this argument loses all merit.

IME, a 24/192 PCM recording made on a true multi-bit non-oversampling ADC (not many of those around that are 24/192-capable), played back on a true multi-bit non-oversampling DAC (not many of those around that are 24/192-capable either!) sounds close enough to the analog for me not to care about any difference that may exist.

Mani.

 

[opus111]

Way prior to Mani, I have clearly stated on several occasions that I thought that PCM sounded "wowie-zowie" compared to DSD.

Although you say you've said this before, this is the first time I've come across it. I concur - compared to DSD, PCM sounds much more dynamic. What's obvious to me now from reading your contributions to this thread is - you have a preference for elevator music.

Stanley Lipshitz's technical analysis of DSD provides a mathematical basis for why DSD has limited dynamics. Does anyone have a hypothesis, any hypothesis at all however far-out, for why PCM's dynamics might be exaggerated?