Do we really all hear the same

[Alrainbow]

http://www.psaudio.com/forum/genera...blings/do-we-all-really-hear-the-same/#p39835

 

[JackD201]

Hearing, for the greater majority I say yes. I mean how else would people able to talk on the phone? Interpretation, that can be widely, even wildly, different. Like here

As for the black/blue/white gold dress, while keeping your head in place, if you are using a laptop gradually tilt your screen back and forth you will see the colors change from black and blue to gold and blue to gold and white and back again. What does that mean?

 

[Alrainbow]

The point stil,is made and most hear and other forums prove the pint we all collectively think we are right just as you feel Iam wrong. It's not that a trained brain does not hear with better ckarity. But we all do hewr different as a collective for its a life long learning curve . My sine who now plays two instruments one being a piano has now allow me to learn more of how a real piano sounds. See I am learning .
Al

 

[JackD201]

Maybe I interpreted your first sentence incorrectly but I don't think you are wrong at all. In fairness, there's a whole lot of autocorrect typos going on throughout the post.

 

[Alrainbow]

Maybe I interpreted your first sentence incorrectly but I don't think you are wrong at all. In fairness, there's a whole lot of autocorrect typos going on throughout the post.

Hahhaaha yes there is some auto correcting.
As we all read abiut each other's findings and for the most part I agree with the ones that seem correct. But the truth is how do we really know period.

 

[amirm]

When it comes to linear transformations like coloring the sound (frequency response variations) we hear remarkably alike. When it comes to less obvious, non-linear distortions we do not. Training also helps and helps a ton with the latter.

 

[TheMadMilkman]

I was reading through some of the Harman white papers this weekend and found their conclusions about hearing in the general population to be very interesting. Generally, we do hear alike. But once hearing loss starts to kick in, all bets are off.

 

[amirm]

Harman's research does say that. But I have spoken to Dr. Toole about that research and he agrees the similarity of us hearing the same is related to speaker colorations being a linear distortion. And that when it comes to non-linear (i.e. less obvious) differences we do not have the same acuity.

Also, I had the pleasure of participating in the blind testing they use to train their expert listeners as part of the group with Dr. Olive being the procotor (see http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Listen-Software-is-Now-Available-For-Download). I had a bit of practice prior to going there, having run the program when Sean had post it here. The group as a whole could not go past level 2-3. I managed to keep up with Sean to about level 5-6 or something like it. But he sailed past me with complete ease. So even though we all hear colorations similarly, or better put, have similar preferences, our ability to identify them requires training/expertise or better acuity.

 

[Orb]

Harman's research does say that. But I have spoken to Dr. Toole about that research and he agrees the similarity of us hearing the same is related to speaker colorations being a linear distortion. And that when it comes to non-linear (i.e. less obvious) differences we do not have the same acuity.

Also, I had the pleasure of participating in the blind testing they use to train their expert listeners as part of the group with Dr. Olive being the procotor (see http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Listen-Software-is-Now-Available-For-Download). I had a bit of practice prior to going there, having run the program when Sean had post it here. The group as a whole could not go past level 2-3. I managed to keep up with Sean to about level 5-6 or something like it. But he sailed past me with complete ease. So even though we all hear colorations similarly, or better put, have similar preferences, our ability to identify them requires training/expertise or better acuity.

Wow,
a bit of an eye opener regarding Sean and listening test in comparison to you Amir.
I would had thought it would be pretty equal between the two of you, well makes you wonder how many of those ABX tests "everyone fails" (using quotes because I am with you regarding importance of training for ABX to have any importance in JND, although it seems we are in the minority on many forums) he would pass lol.

Cheers
Orb

 

[amirm]

Wow,
a bit of an eye opener regarding Sean and listening test in comparison to you Amir.
I would had thought it would be pretty equal between the two of you, well makes you wonder how many of those ABX tests "everyone fails" (using quotes because I am with you regarding importance of training for ABX to have any importance in JND, although it seems we are in the minority on many forums) he would pass lol.

Cheers
Orb

Thanks for the implied compliment.

This was pretty clear evidence that different fields require different training. When I first took the test at home, I could not get past level 3 or so either. But with just a couple of tries, I got to 5-6. I think Sean said their trained listeners had to get up to 12 or something. I suspect with sufficient training I could get up there but thought the contrast was worth mentioning.

Wonder how Sean would do if tables were turned and we were talking about lossy audio conversion .

 

[Orb]

Thanks for the implied compliment.

This was pretty clear evidence that different fields require different training. When I first took the test at home, I could not get past level 3 or so either. But with just a couple of tries, I got to 5-6. I think Sean said their trained listeners had to get up to 12 or something. I suspect with sufficient training I could get up there but thought the contrast was worth mentioning.

Wonder how Sean would do if tables were turned and we were talking about lossy audio conversion .

Yeah good point and that would be interesting
Cheers
Orb

 

[TheMadMilkman]

This was pretty clear evidence that different fields require different training.

This is actually one of my concerns about Harman. I honestly wonder if they aren't potentially stuck in a feedback loop, where they train listeners to hear certain things, and then design their speakers based on those listening impressions.

In other words, is it possible that training some of their listeners in other areas (like the non-linear distortions you mention) would result in better-quality speakers?

I will say, though, that I've been impressed by their speakers, and by Dr. Olive's efforts to push forward the science of sound reproduction.

 

[Chuck Lee]

I have often wondered if there is a correlation between being "tone deaf" and "I don't hear a difference, it all sounds the same".

 

[JackD201]

I have often wondered if there is a correlation between being "tone deaf" and "I don't hear a difference, it all sounds the same".

I have noticed that my friends that say "it all sounds the same to me" are the same people that can't carry even the simplest tunes to save their lives. Yes karaoke is popular here. LOL.

There may be something to that statement. It might be processing problems and not only hearing problems. Something like dyslexia for readers or whatever.

 

[treitz3]

,snip> This was pretty clear evidence that different fields require different training. When I first took the test at home, I could not get past level 3 or so either. But with just a couple of tries, I got to 5-6. I think Sean said their trained listeners had to get up to 12 or something. I suspect with sufficient training I could get up there but thought the contrast was worth mentioning. <snip>

Hello Amir and good morning to you. First off, congrat's on getting to level 5 or 6. While I personally do not know what level I would get to, my first thought was that I believe I would hate it if I were to get anywhere close to level 12 or higher. I am picky and analytical enough without nit picking to the nth degree. At some point along this test, there comes a line one would cross to where they are listening to the playback mechanisms and not enjoying the music. Yes, there are some things I hear with every system I observe (my system I am THE most critical with) but at what point do you simply turn the "audiophile card" off and just enjoy the musical reproductive effort? I.E., simply enjoying the music itself.

While I believe that many members of this forum could climb high on the test, if everybody here at the WBF could achieve level 12 or higher, at what point would the members here disengage from the music itself and be analytical zombies, if you will?

Tom

 

[Chuck Lee]

Thanks for sharing a similar point of view JackD201.

I've been a musician for almost 50 years now, and although my hearing is not what it once was, I can still detect changes in timbre and tone when I switch one thing out for another.
I am not schooled in music, I play by ear, so my ear has been trained to pick out just what the bass player is doing and what parts to sing.

I think this "training" is what makes it easier for me to hear differences, when others cannot.

The necessity of having to fine tune my attention to specific parts of the music when I listen to learn my parts, really never goes away when I listen to music for entertainment.

This approach to audio ,some would say, can't be a pleasurable experience.

Analyzing and focusing on specifics can't be much fun. It could lead to the dreaded "gear head syndrome".

And the music lovers will surely chime in and say that it should be about the music and not the gear.
Flitting from one snippet of music to the next, seems like using music as sonic wallpaper if your attention is focused elsewhere. Is this all about the music?

Critical listening has gone out of fashion.

What I have noticed is that at about the same time as critical listening was on the wane, the sceptics started to grow in numbers.

I guess if you really aren't listening, then everything will sound the same.

 

[Orb]

I have noticed that my friends that say "it all sounds the same to me" are the same people that can't carry even the simplest tunes to save their lives. Yes karaoke is popular here. LOL.

There may be something to that statement. It might be processing problems and not only hearing problems. Something like dyslexia for readers or whatever.

Now what would be interesting regarding those friends who say "all sounds the same to me" and can't carry songs; can they hear when harmony/melody/some instruments played out of key?
I am assuming they should notice that pretty quickly, so a lot of it comes down to level of critical interest, a friend of mine comes from a very musical family (two brothers trained in piano/saxophone and his parents also have a background with music-singing) and he is happy listening to music through his laptop using connected mini speakers and just shrugs regarding subjective qualitative/satisfaction differences.
Probably like your friends he is not critical of my own purchasing commitment to audio, but is indifferent to it.

Cheers
Orb

 

[amirm]

This is actually one of my concerns about Harman. I honestly wonder if they aren't potentially stuck in a feedback loop, where they train listeners to hear certain things, and then design their speakers based on those listening impressions.

I had the same concern until I took the test and realized it is completely different. The training is not to teach you what is good or bad speaker. The training involves hearing a coloration and precisely identifying. This is no different than a mechanic knowing what sound to listen for in the engine to know if there are any issues there.

I have taken the blind preference test (different than the training test above) and both times have voted the same as larger population that have tested such tests which included all walks of life:

In other words, is it possible that training some of their listeners in other areas (like the non-linear distortions you mention) would result in better-quality speakers?

I suspect they do that too, just not using this type of testing.

 

[amirm]

Hello Amir and good morning to you. First off, congrat's on getting to level 5 or 6. While I personally do not know what level I would get to, my first thought was that I believe I would hate it if I were to get anywhere close to level 12 or higher. I am picky and analytical enough without nit picking to the nth degree. At some point along this test, there comes a line one would cross to where they are listening to the playback mechanisms and not enjoying the music. Yes, there are some things I hear with every system I observe (my system I am THE most critical with) but at what point do you simply turn the "audiophile card" off and just enjoy the musical reproductive effort? I.E., simply enjoying the music itself.

While I believe that many members of this forum could climb high on the test, if everybody here at the WBF could achieve level 12 or higher, at what point would the members here disengage from the music itself and be analytical zombies, if you will?

Tom

Hi Tom. As I just explained, this is specialized testing designed to tease out design problems that need to be resolved. The purpose of running such tests is to find problems and get them to be specific enough so that they can be addressed.

When I go shopping for audio/video gear, I have my "testing" and diagnostic hat on just the same. Do others not?

Yes, there is an element of this that will keep you enjoying music on systems that bring out distortions that you are tuned to hear. The solution to that is not to avoid training, but get better designed equipment devoid of such issues.

 

[TheMadMilkman]

I had the same concern until I took the test and realized it is completely different. The training is not to teach you what is good or bad speaker. The training involves hearing a coloration and precisely identifying. This is no different than a mechanic knowing what sound to listen for in the engine to know if there are any issues there.

I have taken the blind preference test (different than the training test above) and both times have voted the same as larger population that have tested such tests which included all walks of life:

The chart actually does a lot to assuage my concern. I'm not sure that Harman's marketing does the best job of explaining how their system works.

And, to be fair, it's a complicated system to describe in marketing-friendly (and attention span friendly!) terms.