Do audiophiles need to be educated to appreciate certain gear?

[caesar]

Many people who are not in our hobby do not appreciate quality gear. They do not understand how a $3500 amp can sound better than a $500 amp. Even if they do hear a difference, they don't find it substantial to plop down the extra cash.

Others claim that they when they first heard a piece of gear, they did not like it or did not fully appreciate what it can do for them . However, after a period of time of listening, they "learned" what a great piece of equipment it was.

So do audiophiles need to be educated to appreciate music from expensive equipment?

 

[cjfrbw]

I think it's a tandem progression that more than resembles an educational process. First, you may be interested in music. You hear something that plays it better, then you want that, too. Then you start exploring. You find that there is an incredibly rich and varied body of information concerning the issue of sound reproduction, and you start to go a bit further, then spend more money or be willing to spend more money to achieve certain goals that used to be intangible.

It is possible to sharpen, hone, educate and refine the senses through use and attention. This progression goes on for years as long as an individual remains interested and curious, and nobody ever learns everything (except for the self anointed). It does require the initiative to pursue the exploration.

Most of the audiophiles that I have run across are cultivated in a manner that is just lost on the regular body of mankind, just because they have pursued their special interest for so many years.
Most of what audiophiles spend their money on is refinement along the lines of the tastes that they have developed.

A lot of exotic audio products do, in fact, give you something for the money, but you have to be prepared to appreciate it first. In that sense, certain products are probably only suitable to audiophiles at certain stages of their journey and the audio products may do certain kinds of things that some audiophiles may not have appreciated earlier. That certainly seems to be the case with me, and one of the reasons that I stick with the hobby is that it continues to open new realms of appreciation that I never even thought I was capable of.

It is politically incorrect to talk about aptitude, but not all audiophiles have the same ability to hear and not all audiophiles hear the same thing, just like not everybody has the same visual ability to perceive dimensions or are color blind. Also, different individuals may just process the raw data in different ways that are based on brain chemistry.

Also, different audiophiles will have a different kind of psychological attachment to audio. Some like order, some like emotion, some like dynamics, some like tone and transition.

Unfortunately, on audio boards, there are a lot of different people with different perception capabilities and psychological reactions talking about stuff as if it is all the same thing to everybody.

 

[Ron Party]

Carl, great post.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

I do a lot of Classical recordings for musicians in my area. Many of them are just not equipped to playback audiophile recordings. One client plays all our stuff on her Mac computer. Another uses the television set. Several complain the levels are too low on my CD/DVD. Others have asked me to 'enhance' the sound to make it sound more forceful, brighter, etc. I tell them that these are deviations from reality, but that I understand whom they are marketing to and thus make subtle enhancements, stating to the clients that these are departures from high-fidelity.
Sadly, musicians are some of the worst offenders for not having good audio gear in the house.

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

Yes, in my experience, musicians are usually the last people to ask about the quality of electronic playback. They're listening to a different drummer, so to speak

 

[MylesBAstor]

I think it's a tandem progression that more than resembles an educational process. First, you may be interested in music. You hear something that plays it better, then you want that, too. Then you start exploring. You find that there is an incredibly rich and varied body of information concerning the issue of sound reproduction, and you start to go a bit further, then spend more money or be willing to spend more money to achieve certain goals that used to be intangible.

It is possible to sharpen, hone, educate and refine the senses through use and attention. This progression goes on for years as long as an individual remains interested and curious, and nobody ever learns everything (except for the self anointed). It does require the initiative to pursue the exploration.

Most of the audiophiles that I have run across are cultivated in a manner that is just lost on the regular body of mankind, just because they have pursued their special interest for so many years.
Most of what audiophiles spend their money on is refinement along the lines of the tastes that they have developed.

A lot of exotic audio products do, in fact, give you something for the money, but you have to be prepared to appreciate it first. In that sense, certain products are probably only suitable to audiophiles at certain stages of their journey and the audio products may do certain kinds of things that some audiophiles may not have appreciated earlier. That certainly seems to be the case with me, and one of the reasons that I stick with the hobby is that it continues to open new realms of appreciation that I never even thought I was capable of.

It is politically incorrect to talk about aptitude, but not all audiophiles have the same ability to hear and not all audiophiles hear the same thing, just like not everybody has the same visual ability to perceive dimensions or are color blind. Also, different individuals may just process the raw data in different ways that are based on brain chemistry.

Also, different audiophiles will have a different kind of psychological attachment to audio. Some like order, some like emotion, some like dynamics, some like tone and transition.

Unfortunately, on audio boards, there are a lot of different people with different perception capabilities and psychological reactions talking about stuff as if it is all the same thing to everybody.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Yes, in my experience, musicians are usually the last people to ask about the quality of electronic playback. They're listening to a different drummer, so to speak

I think, based on my interactions, that we're being a bit hard on musicians. If you practiced and played music all day long, I guarantee you the last thing you'd want to do when you get home, is listen to an audio system

I also think that musicians hear the music in their heads and that fills in the necessary blanks when listening to musical playback. Also, they rarely sit in the audience so their perspective on the sound is a bit different in my experience.

But when I've gone along with musicians selecting say a new piano, they describe the instrument's sound in the same way that we do for audio systems. Bright. Dull. Vibrant. Full. Etc.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think, based on my interactions, that we're being a bit hard on musicians. If you practiced and played music all day long, I guarantee you the last thing you'd want to do when you get home, is listen to an audio system

I also think that musicians hear the music in their heads and that fills in the necessary blanks when listening to musical playback. Also, they rarely sit in the audience so their perspective on the sound is a bit different in my experience.

But when I've gone along with musicians selecting say a new piano, they describe the instrument's sound in the same way that we do for audio systems. Bright. Dull. Vibrant. Full. Etc.

I've known a few audiophile musicians. My musician friends would say I am one. Some of my audiophile friends question that. Most of the many musicians I've known listen to music as much or more than any audiophile I've ever heard of. Listening to music is research, reference and continuing education to musicians. And it is also great pleasure. This is not accounting. Going home to play music is not like going home to crunch numbers for entertainment. These people are musicians out of passion. God knows for all but a very few of them it's not about money.

So why are they not audiophiles? Well, the aforementioned money is part of it, but even among the very talented semi-pros I've known with great day jobs, audiophiles are very rare. Maybe they know too much. Maybe they know, intuitively, that everyone fills in the blanks with the music in their heads. Maybe they understand experientially that audio reproduction is all an illusion, that the performance isn't brought into the home, even on the most expensive systems, and so they just find a place where they can listen in close enough to hear the movement of the small parts, the nuances of performance, which is necessary for the research, and call it good. It could explain why so many musicians have studio monitors and good headphones at home instead of traditional audio systems...nah, probably not. Those are tools of the trade they probably just get double duty from.

P

 

[kach22i]

So do audiophiles need to be educated to appreciate music from expensive equipment?

Such a broad question.

If you had asked; Do consumers need to be educated to develop a want or need to purchase expensive equipment?

You would have gotten an answer dealing with Marketing and Cultural Values.

Tags......................
Audiophile-E: Educated

Audiophile-U: Uneducated

Assumptions.......................
We have assumed both are "audiophiles" let''s also assume they have the same income to level the playing field.

We are now restricting our conversation to the affect of "education".

We need to define if that education is formal (college, on the job training), informal (hobby-through friends and associates), or "Self-Taught", "first hand", "hands on", and "school of hard knocks" experience.

My opinion is that the "self-awareness" path to good or expensive audio can be varied and colorful, and there is no one path. However, people who tend to appreciate finer things and place a high value on them do so mostly (in my opinion) because they enjoy it and it defines them as a person, as a individual.

For example, if your self idenity says you are part of Audiophile-E, your choices in your mind may reflect your education and social status.

For example, if your self idenity says you are part of Audiophile-U, your choices in your mind may reinforce your path taken in life, perhaps a more direct and less superfluous one.

 

[Elliot G.]

IMHO many "audiophiles" do not listen to live music. Many listen to only a few recordings, not all great, to judge things based on bad criteria that they have developed by leading themselves through a flawed process in their home. Our Industry has way to much ego and way to little education about music and music reproduction. I feel the review process should really do more to try to educate the readers in some methodology that would help everyone. I believe we have to look at this issue from the point of bringing new people into our world.i We need to give them tools to understand what we are trying to do and how to evaluate and appreciate what HE audio really is.We are "expensive esoteric gear." We are not HE guys we only think we are! HE is defined by more than expensive products and we lack most of the remaining disciplines that other HE products have>

 

[RUR]

Yes, in my experience, musicians are usually the last people to ask about the quality of electronic playback. They're listening to a different drummer, so to speak

So says Sean.

...Keep in mind that Jonathan Berger's study at Stanford University used music students, and they tended to prefer MP3 @ 128 kbps over lossless formats. So musical training may not be a factor in preference for MP3 versus CD music format. It certainly has never been a factor in any loudspeaker tests we have done over the last 25+ years. In fact, there is evidence from other researchers that musicians are often among the worst listeners in sound quality tests, at least until they've received some training and experience (perhaps they are too focused on musical details and not paying attention to the sound quality differences)......

Emphasis mine.

 

[caesar]

Such a broad question.

If you had asked; Do consumers need to be educated to develop a want or need to purchase expensive equipment?

You would have gotten an answer dealing with Marketing and Cultural Values.

Tags......................
Audiophile-E: Educated

Audiophile-U: Uneducated

Assumptions.......................
We have assumed both are "audiophiles" let''s also assume they have the same income to level the playing field.

We are now restricting our conversation to the affect of "education".

We need to define if that education is formal (college, on the job training), informal (hobby-through friends and associates), or "Self-Taught", "first hand", "hands on", and "school of hard knocks" experience.

My opinion is that the "self-awareness" path to good or expensive audio can be varied and colorful, and there is no one path. However, people who tend to appreciate finer things and place a high value on them do so mostly (in my opinion) because they enjoy it and it defines them as a person, as a individual.

For example, if your self idenity says you are part of Audiophile-E, your choices in your mind may reflect your education and social status.

For example, if your self idenity says you are part of Audiophile-U, your choices in your mind may reinforce your path taken in life, perhaps a more direct and less superfluous one.

By educated, I mean educated in ways of audiophilia. People are free to take that as broadly or narrowly as they want. In my opiinion, there is such a breadth because everyone internalizes the experiences differently.

I find it strange that a person can learn to love a speaker. But I am more of a love at first sight / hearing type of a person.

 

[caesar]

IMHO many "audiophiles" do not listen to live music. Many listen to only a few recordings, not all great, to judge things based on bad criteria that they have developed by leading themselves through a flawed process in their home. Our Industry has way to much ego and way to little education about music and music reproduction. I feel the review process should really do more to try to educate the readers in some methodology that would help everyone. I believe we have to look at this issue from the point of bringing new people into our world.i We need to give them tools to understand what we are trying to do and how to evaluate and appreciate what HE audio really is.We are "expensive esoteric gear." We are not HE guys we only think we are! HE is defined by more than expensive products and we lack most of the remaining disciplines that other HE products have>

Great post! I could not agree more. There is a market for everything, though. And certain brands cater to a guy that prefers to analyze the music rather than hear and be moved by a cohesive whole. When I hear live shows, I never stop and evaluate the parts of the sound. Reviewers, as part of their analysis, break things up. Audiophiles reading those reviews start analyzing also...

And then there is variation in sound based on room setup...

 

[silviajulieta]

Many people who are not in our hobby do not appreciate quality gear. They do not understand how a $3500 amp can sound better than a $500 amp. Even if they do hear a difference, they don't find it substantial to plop down the extra cash.

Others claim that they when they first heard a piece of gear, they did not like it or did not fully appreciate what it can do for them . However, after a period of time of listening, they "learned" what a great piece of equipment it was.

So do audiophiles need to be educated to appreciate music from expensive equipment?

Dear Caesar: IMHO the more critical issue is that many people that are in our hobby can't appreciate either!!!.

This is something that I posted on other thread where we are " talking " on similar subject and I think belongs to your thread:


+++++++++++++ Dear Ron: What if I ask to you or any other person in this forum: +++ Hey do you think that you need to be re-educated on HE audio? ++++ what do you think the persons can answer? which one could be your personal answer?

Randall " touch " a " delicate " whole subject: " which are our each one audio/music references? what means for each one of us: good sound, mediocre sound or excellent sound? why? how are we sure that our opinion match a " standards " on what is good or bad sound? exist those standards?

By coincidence and before Randall post I posted to Jeffrey ( post #99. ):

++++ " this means you LEARN and each one of us that want to grow up and that want to improve the quality performance of our two channels home audio system need LEARN and take day by day " actions " to LEARN everywhere on everything related to audio and MUSIC.

As better our overall knowledge as better our audio chooses and as better our systems quality performance. Our each one " power " as is the each one reviewer power or each one designer/manufacturer power is directly related to each one overall know how level and IMHO this means an each one attitude to LEARN with humility. IMHO No one knows everything on every single audio and MUSIC topic, there is no " expert of experts " persons out there. +++++


Learning means to me: education. The real " problem " on this learn/education subject is IMHO to attain/get the RIGHT education through a RIGHT learning process. Each one of us have our each one level in an Audio Learning Curve. We are what we learn through our audio/music years and many of us think we are near the top of that ALC and maybe many of you are really at the top but many of us that could think we are near the top in reality are far away because what we learn was not always the RIGHT audio/music Education.

A very complex whole subject for say the least. No one of us like that any one questioning our self know how, it does not matters our knowledge level. +++++++++++++



Caesar, your question is: +++++ " So do audiophiles need to be educated to appreciate music from expensive equipment? " +++++

I would like to eliminate the word " expensive " from your question. IMHO my answer is: YES.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[muralman1]

I have been reading all the above posts with interest. I do believe all the audiophile neurosis tabulated fits many audiophiles I know. I am not a musician; well, I only play the recorder. My daughter is a musician. I have been blessed to hear her play her viola with other string instrument musicians in my house. My wife plays our sturdy upright piano. My son makes a decent noise with the bugle. I believe that is the ***** only***** education needed. Frankly, when musicians tell an audiophile they want to hear more dynamics and bright highs, they could be very right.

Anyone trying to ?learn? audio without a familiarity with real acoustic music will be set on an expensive wild trip. That is just where the industry wants us.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

The reasons musicians are asking for me to mess with an otherwise excellent recording is because it sounds dark, or weak on their Mac computer speakers. They aren't listening on so much as decent nearfield monitors. We're back to 1965, where the mix engineer had to make it sound good on a 6x9" car radio speaker.

 

[muralman1]

Oh, I understand. I thought I saw where musicians were complaining about someone's systems. Nevertheless, there has been said there is a learning curve within the audio community. That is so, but always with live acoustic music in mind.

 

[Elliot G.]

and then there is the "reviewer" who has a box to put everything in neatly! MIke feed, live music, if you like the sound etc.

 

[JackD201]

There's a difference in preference between the musicians I know and "lay folks". I call it Plus 2 at 2. That's +2dB at 2kHz. That seems to be the point where they're happy during a mixdown in my limited experience. If you go to a small jazz club and compare the sounds of percussion instruments to popular recordings, particularly cymbals, you'd be very hard pressed not to agree with them. When you're up close like they are, that really is how it sounds. Maybe even more like Plus 8 at 2.

So it really is a matter of perspective. Corny as the row in the hall analogies are, this really does provide one's frame of reference for what is realistic and what isn't. Music just like any artform requires knowledge for deeper appreciation. I believe however that if one does not appreciate something on at least some level, learning more about it won't make you suddenly like something you instinctively didn't like the first time around.

Learning more about Billy Ray Cyrus isn't going to make me like Achey Breaky Heart

 

[MylesBAstor]

IMHO many "audiophiles" do not listen to live music. Many listen to only a few recordings, not all great, to judge things based on bad criteria that they have developed by leading themselves through a flawed process in their home. Our Industry has way to much ego and way to little education about music and music reproduction. I feel the review process should really do more to try to educate the readers in some methodology that would help everyone. I believe we have to look at this issue from the point of bringing new people into our world.i We need to give them tools to understand what we are trying to do and how to evaluate and appreciate what HE audio really is.We are "expensive esoteric gear." We are not HE guys we only think we are! HE is defined by more than expensive products and we lack most of the remaining disciplines that other HE products have>

Hi Elliot:

Some quick thoughts on your many pts:

re: Live music: This is nothing new and has been around since the dawn of audio. Go back and read Edward Villchur's book. He complained about the same thing back in the late '50s. And probably there were more venues around to hear live music back then.

I'd also add that I think this stereotype about audiophiles is overblown. Sure there were some audiophiles who only owned Sheffields and RR discs. But otoh, I know many audiophiles who are encyclopedias of musical knowledge whether it's jazz/classical/rock/etc. They go to at least one concert/week (for instance the weekly rehearsal NY Phil concert -- or Carnegie.) And you know if that's what floats their boat, who are we to tell them otherwise?

I also know quite a few high-end manufacturers who are musicians and/or rabid concert goers.

Also, isn't one reason to own an audio system to explore different genres of music?

re: education

It's a shame the industry can't agree on this. AAHEA had some good ideas. HP had some good ideas. But in the end, no one wanted to spend the money to put something like this together.

Also-like iPods or not-they are an entre for us to get people into better sound. A while back, Mark Levinson and Dick Burwen tried marketing something that would produce better sound from their computer music. Today, there are many products about the same thing. But one of the issues is that we've got to approach "newbies" from the point of view of the music that they listen to. Talk to them about classical music and their eyes glaze over. Talk to them about their favorite group 100 Dead Vice Presidents and their ears will begin to perk up.

Certainly this topic has been debated for years -- but no one wants to take the bull by the horns and to something. The closest we had was the SP Show (who to their credit also tried to reach out to the unwashed through multiple media sources; in addition at one show, they had manufacturers put together a representative high-end system that didn't cost an arm and a leg.) like it or not--and now the going trend of smaller local shows.