Digital that sounds like analog

[NorthStar]

DG

Here's a disc where digital sound shows its true clarity and advantage over analog - http://www.amazon.com/H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne-Grimaud-Plays-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B001NESPH2/. DG is one record company that's doing it right, and Helene Grimaud's playing is simply wonderful. Top notch

---- DG is a great quality music record label. ...I'll check her out; don't think I have her.

 

[Bruce B]

Yep I'm still a huge fan of her, just she needs to get some recording engineers with ears for a decent ADC

You've mentioned this a couple of times. So what are your recommendations for a "decent ADC"?

 

[opus111]

Any which doesn't introduce audible noise modulation. Do you hear it on any of the ADCs you've auditioned? I'm not up to speed with the pro-audio world but it can't be rocket science to design one that's more transparent than the one used on that CD. If there isn't one, I'll get round to designing one myself sometime.

<edit> DG's ADC must be fine on that Helene Grimaud disc, I don't hear noise modulation. Do you know what they use?

 

[Bruce B]

Any which doesn't introduce audible noise modulation. Do you hear it on any of the ADCs you've auditioned?

<edit> DG's ADC must be fine on that Helene Grimaud disc, I don't hear noise modulation. Do you know what they use?

The ADC's I use are the Grimm AD1, DAD AX24, EMM Labs ADC8IV and the MSB Platinum Studio. All seem fine to me.

Don't know what DG uses, though I know must European labels use either DAD, dCS, Prism or Grimm, all EU brands.

 

[opus111]

Have you listened to them in an ADC-DAC path where the DAC is a NOS one at 44k1? I suggest you try that experiment - perhaps get hold of a Metrum Octave to have a play. If you can afford to wait then try with the one I'm developing.

Its my understanding that Bruno's a big fan of 1bit so I'd avoid the Grimm myself. But this is just my surmizing, I haven't heard it for myself. I understand you like it so do try the above experiment for yourself.

 

[Bruce B]

Have you listened to them in an ADC-DAC path where the DAC is a NOS one at 44k1?

My mastering chain for Digital is DAC -> console -> ADC -> DAC The last DAC is not NOS, though I have been using multiple DAC's lately like the Playback Designs MPS-5 and the Mytek.

 

[opus111]

Both those designs are S-D so the noise modulation they introduce are likely masking the effects of the ADC.

 

[LL21]

Any which doesn't introduce audible noise modulation. Do you hear it on any of the ADCs you've auditioned? I'm not up to speed with the pro-audio world but it can't be rocket science to design one that's more transparent than the one used on that CD. If there isn't one, I'll get round to designing one myself sometime.

<edit> DG's ADC must be fine on that Helene Grimaud disc, I don't hear noise modulation. Do you know what they use?

Yamaha Commercial Audio? From their website but dont know how old.

"The Emil Berliner Studios report on the use of 12x DM 1000 mixing consoles and 5x AD 8 HR microphone preamps/AD converters in the Emil Berliner Studios' premises at Deutsche Grammophon GmbH in Langenhagen:

“Since our experience with our 16 DM 2000 Yamaha mixing consoles for the recording and post-production sector was excellent, we also decided to buy 12 of the DM 1000 mixing consoles for use in our studio business.

Our sound supervisor was particularly pleased that the operation of the two types of mixing console was very similar. The fact that both mixing consoles use the same input and output cards simplifies the service considerably.

For our Recording Service Department we also need small, light mixing consoles for 96 kHz sample rates, 24 bit and surround sound routing.
With the DM 1000 mixing consoles and the 5 AD 8 HR microphone preamps/AD converters which we bought at the same time, we are in an excellent position to meet these requirements.
And we can still use our tried and trusted recording system, the stage boxes, i.e. the microphone preamps plus AD converter are located on stage with a digital link to the studio.

An important aspect to recording on location is also the remote control for the microphone preamp/AD converter integrated in the console (of both the DM 1000 and the DM 2000).

Since we also need mixing consoles with a 96 kHz sample rate, 24 bit and surround sound routing in the tape mastering department, the new DM 1000s are also used for this.

All the console users can save their personal configuration and store this individual setup on the PC or transfer it to in any other mastering studio. Given that we operate a shift system in our company, and that the staff move from studio to studio, this is very important.”

 

[opus111]

Thanks Lloyd - doing a spot of detective work on the spec sheet for the Yamaha ADC suggests it is indeed an S-D converter because it comes with a typical 900uS group delay at 48kHz meaning about 43 samples latency. if the ADC were SAR type, this would be in single digits unless some fairly complex digital processing was being performed.

 

[LL21]

Thanks Lloyd - doing a spot of detective work on the spec sheet for the Yamaha ADC suggests it is indeed an S-D converter because it comes with a typical 900uS group delay at 48kHz meaning about 43 samples latency. if the ADC were SAR type, this would be in single digits unless some fairly complex digital processing was being performed.

Hi Opus...bear in mind that your CD from DG was released in 2009...no idea when it was actually recorded...my little 'factoid' might have been from '03...who knows? i could not find anydate whatsoever.

 

[opus111]

Ha yes, very good point! I need to begin keeping a notebook of dates and dynamics factors of the various DG CDs I listen to. Then we might be able to track their equipment inventory over time

 

[LL21]

Ha yes, very good point! I need to begin keeping a notebook of dates and dynamics factors of the various DG CDs I listen to. Then we might be able to track their equipment inventory over time

check this out...was it digitally recorded? http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?PRODUCT_NR=4777978
see serial number: CD DDD 0289 477 7978 0 GH

therefore no A/D?

 

[LL21]

check this out...was it digitally recorded? http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?PRODUCT_NR=4777978
see serial number: CD DDD 0289 477 7978 0 GH

therefore no A/D?

got it!

http://www.emil-berliner-studios.com/en/regie12.html

?Yamaha DM 2000 mixing console (MADI, AES/EBU)
?Bowers & Wilkins Nautilus 802 (5.1 Surround)
?Bowers & Wilkins Matrix 801
?Merging Technologies Pyramix Workstation (using MassCore technology)
?Avid ProTools HD
?Algorithmix ReNOVAtor
?Waves Mastering Plugins: Waves Gold Bundle, Waves Masters Bundle, Waves Renaissance Maxx Bundle
?Lexicon 960L
?Lexicon 480L
?Headphones: Sennheiser HD 600, AKG K 501
?Lake People headphone amplifier
?Sony LED flatscreen TV
?etc.

OR

Possibilities:
?Recordings* from the Recording Studio or Meistersaal
?Mastering*
?Remastering of historic recordings
?Mixing*
?Vinyl cutting (from digital sources or analog tape machine)

* digitally or using a completely analog signal chain

Equipment:
?Neumann vinyl cutting machine VMS 80
?16-channel vintage tube mixing console from Deutsche Grammophon, 1957, equipped with V72 and V76 amplifiers and tube filters
?Polygram transistor mixing console, 36 channels, from the 1970s
?Digital outboard gear: Lexicon 960L, Lexicon 480L, Quantec Yardstick, Weiss Equalizer
?Analog outboard gear: Compressors, filters, echo chambers
?Analog tape recorders: ?Studer A80R ½ inch, 15 & 30 ips, 2-track
?Studer A807 ½ inch, 15 & 30 ips, 4-track
?Studer A80R 1 inch, 15 & 15 ips, 8-track
?Studer C37 (Tube) ¼ Zoll, 15 ips, 2-track
?Studer A812 ¼ inch, 15 ips, 2-track

?Digital audio workstations: ?Protools HD
?Pyramix (PCM)
?Pyramix (DSD)
?Wavelab (using CubeTec remastering plugins)
?Waves Mastering Plugins: Waves Gold Bundle, Waves Masters Bundle, Waves Renaissance Maxx Bundle

?Bowers & Wilkins Matrix 801

OTHER
Converters, Effects, Outboard GeardCS 974 (PCM/DSD)
Kuhnle AD 8192
RME Micstasy *
Yamaha AD8HR
Lexicon 960 L
Lexicon 480 L *
Daniel Weiss EQ1
Daniel Weiss EQ1 LP
Quantec Yardstick 2402


~ New Release ~

Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750)
•Prelude & Fugue No. 2 in C, BWV 847, WTC, Book I
•Prelude & Fugue No. 4 in c#, BWV 849, WTC, Book I
•Concerto No.1 for Piano and Orchestra in d, BWV 1052 *
•Prelude & Fugue No. 6 in d, WTC, Book II
•Chaconne in d from Violin Partita No. 2, BWV 1004 [Busoni transcription]
•Prelude & Fugue No. 20 in a, BWV 889, WTC, Book II
•Prelude & Fugue in a, BWV 543 (for organ) [Liszt transcription]
•Relude in E Major from Violin Partita No. 3, BWV 1006 [Rachmaninoff transcription]
Hélène Grimaud, piano (Steinway)
*Die Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie-Bremen
(Florian Donderer, leader)
Deutsche Grammophon B0012504, DDD, 76:03
________________________________________________

Since her exclusive signing with Deutsche Grammophon, Hélène Grimaud's pianistic reputation has grown considerably. This despite the fact that there were many recordings previously offered by the artist on the Erato, Warner Classics, Denon, Brilliant, and Elatus (Warner) labels. Even then her recordings were considered outstanding. Her reputation was extended further with the release of her biography, Wild Harmonies: A Life of Music and Wolves, published in 2006 thus winning her many more followers.

This is a well-thought-out release...

...This is one of the best-sounding piano recordings to emerge from Deutsche Grammophon in a long time. Acoustically, it's the most ideal sound for a concert grand. The piano (not identified, but sounding like a Hamburg Steinway) is absolutely gorgeous, fully resonant, and clear as a bell. Rarely is the piano technician mentioned in reviews, however, much credit must certainly go to Serge Poulain, who has accomplished a remarkable task. Throughout, Grimaud must have enjoyed playing an instrument that yields to her every wish; it certainly comes off to this listener that way.

The recordings were made in May 2008 at Hamburg-Harburg, Friedrich-Ebert Halle (concerto) with the solo recordings made in August 2008 at Funkhaus Berlin, Saal. The recording and mastering was done by Emil Berliner Studios and they get five stars, as does Hélène Grimaud, for this outstanding release. •

_________________
Lance G. Hill
Editor-in-Chief
______________________________________________________

 

[gaetan8888]

Hello opus111

I've just found this forum and your thread.

I could use you first version of your filter for my nos TDA1541A.

Could you post the Ltspice asc file of your filter ?

I would test the phase response.

Thank you

Bye

Gaetan

 

[opus111]

Hi Gaetan, and welcome to WBF !

I just tried to attach the .asc and it has given me an 'Invalid file' warning sign and won't upload. I guess it does not like .asc extensions so I'll have to work out how to get around that problem. In the meantime you could send me your email by PM and I'll be happy to mail it to you.

 

[NorthStar]

-- Bonjour Gaetan, et Bienvenue a WBF! :b

Robert (Bob)

* Tu parles bien Francais, oui?

 

[gaetan8888]

-- Bonjour Gaetan, et Bienvenue a WBF! :b

Robert (Bob)

* Tu parles bien Francais, oui?

Hello

Oui, je parles Francais, j'habite au Québec.

Bye

Gaetan

 

[opus111]

Just in case the techies here were getting bored with the recent talk about CDs, here's some progress on the mods to the DAC-AH. The pic shows the logic board underway with 4 CMOS chips. The larger one to the left is a 128 bit shift register, being used as a delay line. Since the audio data comes out of the recceiver chip (CS8414) at 64fs (2.8MHz) there are 64 bits per stereo sample but on CD only 32 of these bits are used. To provide a two sample delay I need 128bits of storage - the delay is needed for the NOS droop correction. The remaining three chips to the right are for level shifting because the larger chip needs a higher supply voltage, being from a much older and slower generation of CMOS (4000 series, rather than 74HC). I drive the DAC chips themselves with lower voltage signals so as to keep the noise levels down.



For those who are curious enough to wonder precisely how a two tap delay line corrects for the frequency response droop incurred by NOS, have a peek at a post on my blog from earlier this year : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/abraxalito/869-using-audacity-do-nos-droop-correction.html

 

[opus111]

Another quick recording plug

I first loved Saint Seans from being introduced to his 'Carnival of the Animals' while still a schoolboy - I even got to play one of the piano parts with the school orchestra. At last a composer with an impish sense of humour! Then as a 6th form student his second piano concerto was the first recording I made off-air on the 'music centre' I bought with my part-time earnings as my first sound system. The soloist then, as here, was Pascal Roge. Now however its the first and third piano concertos which have overtaken the second in my heart. I used the first movement of the first as primary test material for soundstage depth while developing my S-D DAC, long since abandoned for the loftier realms of multibit .

http://www.amazon.com/Saint-Saëns-Piano-Concertos-Camille-Saint-Saens/dp/B00000425S/

 

[opus111]

An enjoyable and unique rendition of Brahm's 'German Requiem' spoiled only by what I take to be noise modulation from the ADC. Its particularly evident on vocal consonants (the choir here is 16 strong), sounding like a softer version of sibilance, a kind of rasping or lisping. The other effect it has is flattening of the soundstage depth, preventing really listening in to the recording by imposing a wall of cotton wool over the subtle ambience details. Nevertheless musically very pleasurable, especially for anyone already familiar with the traditional version of this Requiem.

http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Ein-Deutsches-Requiem-Johannes/dp/B000URDDX4/