DAC architecture reimagined - the Cascade DAC

[luca.pelliccioli]

Welcome, Daniel and thank you for the useful clarification. It makes sense. I'm not happy but I can perfectly understand and I'm still with you! Good luck for Munich show and the Cascade launch.

 

[bryans]

Also, the price gap between the Reference and Select (73,500) is much bigger than between the Reference and Cascade (16,000).

Just to clarify am I reading this correct? The price gap between the Reference and Cascade is 16K? That would mean the Reference now cost 79K? And the Select would cost $152,500. Are you adding in the cost of the DD with this price?

 

[bryans]

@Daniel Gullman I welcome the new design and MSB pushing the boundaries. My issue is with the 50% trade up value for my Reference, it's worth basically the same as the Premier towards a Cascade. The 90% Premier trade vs the 50% Reference trade means I lose approx 25K in value. With the fast pace of digital your trade policy was the reason I chose MSB.

 

[treitz3]

Hello, Daniel. Please allow me to offer you a very warm welcome to the WBF.

Tom

 

[Erikl]

Hello! This is Daniel Gullman here, finally decided to make an account and jump in to share some thoughts. It pains me to see speculation for things that I have the answers behind all this… so here I am, to hopefully clear things up.

The 95,000 USD price of the Cascade DAC is a disruption to MSB and to industry trends. Here, we have a DAC outperforming the Select DAC and we made the radical decision to sell it for less. Why?

I will happily provide some full transparency on the reasoning behind the decisions made. This is a real example of how “greedy corporations” can and often work, not us. We could have arbitrarily decided to sell the Cascade DAC for 165,000. That reality would see our customers unknowingly purchase both the Cascade DAC and the value of the Reference DAC all over again. Easy for us to offer 100% trade value as long as we could still find a way to sleep at night. A cloak and daggers method to deceive people. This is genuinely what industry folks asked us to do when we first revealed the pricing… it’s a thing. I hate it.

Let’s chat about the previous trade in program, and how it was different. For the Reference to Select upgrade: we gut and re-use almost all the parts of the Reference DAC. Because this is the same platform, we can do that and make the trade in actually work. Also, the price gap between the Reference and Select (73,500) is much bigger than between the Reference and Cascade (16,000). But now, moving to the Cascade, we have fundamentally changed to next gen architecture and we cannot migrate materials over. If we limited the Cascade to the Select platform it would have killed our most innovative product evolution yet. The Cascade DAC will have 90% trade in because similarly, we can migrate the actual DAC materials over to the new Sentinel DAC.

Now, let’s address modular design… the DACs are still modular and will still benefit from this. When/if new updates or input modules come out, they will be made available to existing DACs that are already 10 years old… and that will continue moving forward. The Digital Director for the Reference and Select is an upgrade we were able to implement because of this. This is the upgrade path to the new platform! Y’all made it! This is how products are supported. We will continue to do this! We are nerds and we want everyone to get their hands on cool stuff. We can service and fix our DACs longer than anyone in our industry because of this design feature.

Alright, sorry for the long message, last thing to discuss. Why 50%? I hear you, and you are right. Do not trade in a one month old DAC! That would be wild. This trade in policy is a price protection policy. It means in 5 years, your Reference will not drop below 50% because it CAN be traded in for the Cascade. Maybe even in 8 or 10 years!? If anyone wants to sell their new Reference DAC, the buyer can know that DAC has an established value. It is worth a hell of a lot more than 50% its original value. Let’s not get carried away praising the new DAC at the cost the Reference and Select DACs. They are still. So. Damn. Good. Every owner thought it was worth the money when they bought them, and they still are.

So, in the end, why choose 95k vs 165k? This is where the buyer wins, not the “greedy corporation”. I am terribly concerned over industry behavior towards charging whatever will be paid. Systems based on retail dollar values instead of the product craftsmanship. They say the audio market is slowing down, but I feel we are simply pricing out the people we do it for. We are engineers who have created a leading class manufacturing facility with advanced robotics, lean manufacturing, and clever designs to be able to offer our best sound ever at this price point. I am not disillusioned on the price, this is still expensive, but we are going to make sure quality from start to finish is second to none.

This is as honest as I can be. I am just a guy trying to make cool audio systems because I really like building them. I am not trying to screw anyone over. We made a decision that was best for the most people possible… and I totally get how much that sucks for some of you. For that, I am sorry. We decided not to gauge you… if you tally it up, it’s a better future for you too.

Cheers all! Glad to be here.

Thank you for the explanation, which makes perfect sense to me. When you buy a product from any manufacturer, let's say for USD 100,000, you cannot reasonably expect that this gives you a lifelong right to be credited with USD 100,000 on all new products from the manufacturer. Purchasers of audio and other equipment must accept that there will be substantial depreciation in the value of used equipment upon trade-in. Otherwise, manufacturers would be forced to inflate the prices of new products to earn money from sales to existing customers.

What advice do you have for Select owners who want the best MSB DAC available? Is it possible for us to trade in our Select DAC and director for the Cascade DAC and receive a credit of 50% of the original purchase price, and then later trade in the Cascade DAC for the Sentinel DAC when it is released? I ask this question because your new trade-in policy does not explicitly mention any trade-in options for the Select DAC towards the Cascade DAC.

 

[l_santista]

Just to clarify am I reading this correct? The price gap between the Reference and Cascade is 16K? That would mean the Reference now cost 79K? And the Select would cost $152,500. Are you adding in the cost of the DD with this price?

yes he's adding, and since the cascade already comes with a DD, that is the most reasonable comparisson

 

[Daniel Gullman]

C

Just to clarify am I reading this correct? The price gap between the Reference and Cascade is 16K? That would mean the Reference now cost 79K? And the Select would cost $152,500. Are you adding in the cost of the DD with this price?

Correct, the Reference with the DD is most similar.

 

[Daniel Gullman]

@Daniel Gullman I welcome the new design and MSB pushing the boundaries. My issue is with the 50% trade up value for my Reference, it's worth basically the same as the Premier towards a Cascade. The 90% Premier trade vs the 50% Reference trade means I lose approx 25K in value. With the fast pace of digital your trade policy was the reason I chose MSB.

I see exactly what you are saying, and I am sure it feels unfair. Again, sorry this is the case for you specifically. To clarify, this is based on idea that you "should" trade the Reference DAC in now. As stated, this 50% is price protection for the long term, not to cycle new products year by year. Selling used, people will pay much more than the retail of a New Premier DAC for a used Reference DAC if you want to move it quickly. If you keep the DAC long enough, that 50% will become much more attractive. That being said, selling on the open market will give you the best value, not a 25K loss. That used market will also be boosted that even after more time the Reference DAC has a minimum value it can hit. At some point, many years later, it can be sold as a token and used to upgrade... I am sure the next owner will be very happy to have it.

 

[Daniel Gullman]

Thank you for the explanation, which makes perfect sense to me. When you buy a product from any manufacturer, let's say for USD 100,000, you cannot reasonably expect that this gives you a lifelong right to be credited with USD 100,000 on all new products from the manufacturer. Purchasers of audio and other equipment must accept that there will be substantial depreciation in the value of used equipment upon trade-in. Otherwise, manufacturers would be forced to inflate the prices of new products to earn money from sales to existing customers.

What advice do you have for Select owners who want the best MSB DAC available? Is it possible for us to trade in our Select DAC and director for the Cascade DAC and receive a credit of 50% of the original purchase price, and then later trade in the Cascade DAC for the Sentinel DAC when it is released? I ask this question because your new trade-in policy does not explicitly mention any trade-in options for the Select DAC towards the Cascade DAC.

Thanks for the understanding Erikl. I appreciate hearing it.

If you can't wait for the Sentinel DAC, selling your system on the current market and then buying the Cascade DAC now will set you up for the future. We will have 90% trade in for the Cascade to the Sentinel, as this will also be based on the same next gen platform.

We will offer a 50% trade in towards the Sentinel for the Select for the exact same reasons as the Reference towards the Cascade. 50% of the Select+DD is almost the same price as the Cascade, so it is not an option currently. But, we will be able to make that work for the Sentinel.

We should start releasing some more info on the Sentinel DAC in about a year. By far, the most ambitious system we have ever dreamed up. This will be limited productions as a statement piece. The first shipping units are at least 2 years out. I may encourage leaning towards the Cascade DAC in the meantime because Sentinel DAC still has a long way to go. But wow, can't wait to share some updates. Its very fun.

 

[bryans]

I see exactly what you are saying, and I am sure it feels unfair. Again, sorry this is the case for you specifically. To clarify, this is based on idea that you "should" trade the Reference DAC in now. As stated, this 50% is price protection for the long term, not to cycle new products year by year. Selling used, people will pay much more than the retail of a New Premier DAC for a used Reference DAC if you want to move it quickly. If you keep the DAC long enough, that 50% will become much more attractive. That being said, selling on the open market will give you the best value, not a 25K loss. That used market will also be boosted that even after more time the Reference DAC has a minimum value it can hit. At some point, many years later, it can be sold as a token and used to upgrade... I am sure the next owner will be very happy to have it.

You are the owner and I am the consumer. You make the rules and I have the choice to follow them. I just wish I could have known this 4 months ago that going forward my unit would be worth 50% in trade.

 

[Young Skywalker]

You are the owner and I am the consumer. You make the rules and I have the choice to follow them. I just wish I could have known this 4 months ago that going forward my unit would be worth 50% in trade.

I hear you. It hurts if you are in a hurry to upgrade from the Reference + Director (particularly a very new set) to the Cascade. The former is already amazing in every way and nothing will diminish that, ever. I plan on enjoying mine for many years to come and some day, finances permitting, move smoothly to the Cascade in full knowledge of the changeover price. Because I use my Reference DAC as the heart of both analog and digital sources, I expect the lower noise “preamp” section of the Cascade to be of particular benefit to me.

I applaud MSB for their pricing decision on the Cascade. The industry is in a race to the top in terms of price and it must stop. Yes, 95k USD is an eye watering sum for a non-essential consumer item in the real world. But unlike in economics, the trickle down effect here is real.

 

[bryans]

I hear you. It hurts if you are in a hurry to upgrade from the Reference + Director (particularly a very new set) to the Cascade. The former is already amazing in every way and nothing will diminish that, ever. I plan on enjoying mine for many years to come and some day, finances permitting, move smoothly to the Cascade in full knowledge of the changeover price. Because I use my Reference DAC as the heart of both analog and digital sources, I expect the lower noise “preamp” section of the Cascade to be of particular benefit to me.

I applaud MSB for their pricing decision on the Cascade. The industry is in a race to the top in terms of price and it must stop. Yes? 95k USD is an eye watering sum for a non-essential consumer item in the real world. But unlike in economics, the trickle down effect here is real.

No there is no rush for me to upgrade. I kept my Premier for 2 years before moving to the Reference. That was my plan as well. But knowing I now only get 50% value towards a trade isn't good. Again this was a major reason for going with MSB.

I could have kept my Premier longer and traded it towards the Cascade for basically the same amount of money as I now get for the Reference. That alone would have saved me around 25k USD.

 

[Brucemck2]

You are the owner and I am the consumer. You make the rules and I have the choice to follow them. I just wish I could have known this 4 months ago that going forward my unit would be worth 50% in trade.

Ditto.

 

[l_santista]

"I hear you", meaning, I woudnt expect someone to have paid a largem sum for a DAC to be opening a champagne in your exact case. However, Daniel has been very kind and elucidative here, so let discuss this on terms of what exactly would make someone in your position "happier" (because just "happy" you should already be, the reference with DD has been my dream for a year now, I honestly sold my motorcycle in the hopings of saving for it, but financial setbacks postponed this plan for a few years at least) or say, keep loyal to a brand? lets explore:

1) announce, years in advance, exactly when they are going to bring the next generation, exact prices so customers can plan ahead, etc? WHo has ever done that? Ok, one might point out hi end companies sometimes do something similar, announcing products in advance by a few quarters, and in the end postpone their releases or actual shipments by years , even more after the pandemics taught us all a few lessons; That said, MSB is actually doing something similar with the sentinel DAC, but well, for obvious reasons (may encourage cascade sales), and really, can you blame that?
2) charge so much more for the new flagship and offer better trade terms for current gen top models? would that make more loyal? sure, more loyal yes, but that is the whole point Daniel already kindly explained they tried to avoid. What is the competition doing? just raising prices to absurd levels, if one prefers that... just e sure to check that companies trade in program! (Im not so naive and do expect the sentinel to go for a quite "absurd" msrp once is released, but that doesnt detract from the cascade costing less and performing suposedly better than the Select)
3) just be nice and charge "only" 95k for the new flagship and yet offer 70-90% on used References/Select. So... this one shoud be even more obvious to see where it goes, as Select owners would actually get payed quite a sum to upgrade, and even with Reference trades, MSB would probably be losing a good amount on each cascade trade, all costs involved.

Now, had I the funds, I would buy your current version, almost brand new reference+DD at much more than 50% right away, maybe 70%75%? who knows exactly.. Was I really wealthy, then yeah, I would just get the Cascade, but then, well, someone else would be interested on an almost new Referece. On the other hand, I wouldnt pay near 70% for say a 6 year non current version of the DAC with the first gen of clock and probably some scratchs to go with it. All this should be obvious, perhaps some are still hoping to get better terms instead of having to sell on the used market like the rest of mere mortals do. Apologies in advance if I sound too harsh - I do appreciate your math on the argument that, well, those who bought the premier recently just happened to land on a better deal. To that point, as far as I researched or heard MSB DACs (not so much, only twice other than on Munich 23), the Reference is where the MSB magic happens (though admitedly, I was also very impressed with premier + DD on Munich), so again, be happy about the amazing Dac you have!

A final point, related to #1 above, and admitedly I dont expect this to be a popular argument. If I was about to spend the price of two compact cars on a single equipment, of digital hifi audio, that has over 5 years of life (maybe ten on the Select case?), on the mid of the fierce competition that ultra high end DACs have become in the last years, I would sooo surely ask whoever I can "hey, how are the plans for a next gen release?". Now maybe, even likely, your dealer just wouldnt know. If then asking the manufacturer and he ignores or just lie and says no, well, then maybe ignore this final point. (or if one dealer just told his clients "no way, they will not update in many years", humm, how would HE know for sure? and then the client would complain to him, not to MSB, but hey, Im just speculating and this probably never happened). But if asking MSB and they would come up with some answer like "sorry cannot comment at this time" or "we are always working to push limits even further", I would probably just wait. Im sorry if it sounds as Im trying to claim smartness, but even their video on the new state of the art CNC machining station opening interesting possibilities had me thinking a new DAC would be in the works and a "better" machined case would be part of it. Nice that the modules are still gonna be upgradable, but lets be honest, if any brand, not just MSB, just waited many more years to release to some sort of next gen lineup, one could justly expect they'd be losing space in the game. Sure, it could have taken more than a few months after the CNC station video, or maybe some of you bought your DACs just before that, but still...

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

I would suggest to MSB a special “promotional campaign” exclusively for all the Reference owners who want to purchase/upgrade a Digital Director, just for taming their actual “trade-in sadness”:
1. The actual price of the DD is becoming difficult to justify the upgrade after the Cascade launch
2. We can expect in the next future that lots of used DD units will be available (coming from the trade-in-upgrades to Cascade). It should imply many “reconditioned” DD units soon in house
3. It could offer to all Reference owners the opportunity to still upgrade their DACs and elevate the performance of their systems at a lesser price
4. It could reduce the gap in performance/architecture between old (Reference) and new (Cascade) generation DACs
5. It should reinforce the loyalty of customers that actually seems to be compromised/penalized by the new trade-in policy (nevertheless what Daniel has transparently clarified makes perfectly sense)
6. It could keep alive a market segment of MSB products otherwise pretty dead (out of production) after the new gen launch
7. It could save, as a consequence, the value of used Reference DACs on the market.
8. It could permit the opportunity to gain new customers due to a “more affordable” solution

Sorry if it is a silly idea! Just my honest contribution to the debate.

 

[matthias]

TBH, the big mistake of MSB was selling Digital Directors as add-on to their existing line.
It would have been much better introducing the DD later with the Cascade.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

I would suggest to MSB a special “promotional campaign” exclusively for all the Reference owners who want to purchase/upgrade a Digital Director, just for taming their actual “trade-in sadness”:

...Taiko had a similar "special intro" approach with the new Olympus and I/O products, so perhaps not so silly at all.

 

[bryans]

"I hear you"

Have you? Not one time I have ever said I wasn't happy with my Reference. MSB selling the Cascade cheaper than the Select is great but has nothing to do with my issue.

As I stated before my issue is my Reference @ 50% trade value is worth almost the same as the Premier @ 90% trade value. It is as simple as that. With this my Reference has lost approx 25K in trade value.

If I was about to spend the price of two compact cars on a single equipment, of digital hifi audio, that has over 5 years of life (maybe ten on the Select case?), on the mid of the fierce competition that ultra high end DACs have become in the last years, I would sooo surely ask whoever I can "hey, how are the plans for a next gen release?".

Who said I didn't do this?

 

[Daniel Gullman]

I would suggest to MSB a special “promotional campaign” exclusively for all the Reference owners who want to purchase/upgrade a Digital Director, just for taming their actual “trade-in sadness”:
1. The actual price of the DD is becoming difficult to justify the upgrade after the Cascade launch
2. We can expect in the next future that lots of used DD units will be available (coming from the trade-in-upgrades to Cascade). It should imply many “reconditioned” DD units soon in house
3. It could offer to all Reference owners the opportunity to still upgrade their DACs and elevate the performance of their systems at a lesser price
4. It could reduce the gap in performance/architecture between old (Reference) and new (Cascade) generation DACs
5. It should reinforce the loyalty of customers that actually seems to be compromised/penalized by the new trade-in policy (nevertheless what Daniel has transparently clarified makes perfectly sense)
6. It could keep alive a market segment of MSB products otherwise pretty dead (out of production) after the new gen launch
7. It could save, as a consequence, the value of used Reference DACs on the market.
8. It could permit the opportunity to gain new customers due to a “more affordable” solution

Sorry if it is a silly idea! Just my honest contribution to the debate.

Not silly at all Luca. Will discuss with Jonathan. We may also have a supply of refurbished digital directors become available as well which could suit this application. Thanks, will keep you posted.

 

[exupgh12]

Heard the Cascde today in munich, I can't tell if it superior to Select 2 as it wasn't presented on the same rooms as Cascade.
All i can tell it's an awesome DAC, and at lower price then the Select 2, great stuff from MSB.