Cheap and effective tweak

[sbo6]

This is commonly used for electronics often in combination with copper sheets. Totaldac offers copper plates as an upgrade, I believe Taiko also uses copper strategically installed in their servers.

3M™ EMI Shielding Absorber AB6000HF Series | 3M United States

 

[thazeldean]

Hey friend, don't shoot the messenger of science. I'm glad you feel you are hearing a benefit, enjoy!

I thought it was you shooting the messenger!!!

 

[Kingrex]

I believe in shielding. I also believe you can overshield, or shield improperly where you have no drain and inadvertantly create a choke. That choke depending on your system may make a unique sound you like. Who knows.

If I am thinking about shielding, I am not thinking about more shield material inside a steel can. I am thinking, how can I shield the back of my rack from power wires in the wall. How can I isolate or shield my signal or speaker cables from power cables. How can I block RF (Super hard to do, but not impossible).

You have to consider what your shielding against. Low or high frequency noise. And, are you trying to shield to keep noise out or keep noise in.

After all that, you have to incorporate how your going to drain the noise.

 

[Cellcbern]

Been using "Quantum Physics Noise Disruptors" (on breaker box and power conditioner, under amp and power supply) for more than a decade instead of the "mess" and work of putting foil and/or sheet metal on things. Very effective. Still one of the best tweaks I've tried. Link to original review:

quantum

Combined with good power conditioning and several different types of plug in and add on filters my system has no audible noise or electronic artifact issues.

 

[Swisstrips]

If I am thinking about shielding, I am not thinking about more shield material inside a steel can. I am thinking, how can I shield the back of my rack from power wires in the wall. How can I isolate or shield my signal or speaker cables from power cables. How can I block RF (Super hard to do, but not impossible).

Interesting, is there any info on what possible implications power lines in wall play on all the cabling behind rack as well as long cable runs when rack is on side wall (30ft + run along baseboards to mono's etc..)

 

[Cellcbern]

Interesting, is there any info on what possible implications power lines in wall play on all the cabling behind rack as well as long cable runs when rack is on side wall (30ft + run along baseboards to mono's etc..)

".....info on possible implications....."? Are you hearing noise/distortion when you play your system?

If you absorb/drain/eliminate EMI and RFI at the rack/components does it matter what 30 feet of baseboard wiring picks up?

 

[Swisstrips]

".....info on possible implications....."? Are you hearing noise/distortion when you play your system?

If you absorb/drain/eliminate EMI and RFI at the rack/components does it matter what 30 feet of baseboard wiring picks up?

Not that I'm aware of, but it's sort of Impossible to know unless any said noise is removed. Short of proper cbl dressing + routing that's all one can do generally speaking. My question was specific to rex comments on in wall radiating to items close by.

Sure draining everything at the rack would appear to be a good idea along with the endless grounding products / methods, but that gets too far into the weeds WRT my question.

 

[Kingrex]

Interesting, is there any info on what possible implications power lines in wall play on all the cabling behind rack as well as long cable runs when rack is on side wall (30ft + run along baseboards to mono's etc..)

I have had people with phono systems that have the tone arm cable shoved up against the wall and picked up hum from power wires in the wall. I told that person, pull the wires away from the wall. 6 inches is usually enough. It was kind of silly in one instance. The guy was sure my wiring was causing a radio station to play out his speakers. I told him that is not the case. That is something in the phone chain. I had to go to his house with 2 phono stages and an isloation transformer to prove my point. He still deicided to badmouth my business to a local store and who knows who else. Well, the store told him that is not the problem. Its his phono stage, just like I told him. A few months later he is all happy to tell me he has a new phono stage and the radio noise is gone. What an Ass.

Anyhow, phono and speaker cables are highly susceptible to EMF. Its best to keep space between them and any power wires. Especially if they might parallel them for any distance. If power wires or interconnect are running along the baseboard, the are probably passing perpendicular to wires in the wall. It should not be an issue. If it is, you would hear a hum that goes away when you pull them out from the wall.

If you were in a place where the entire electrical panel was running all the wires up the wall behind your rack, we might want to discuss ways to mitigate the EMF from them. That field may get kind of large. Especially with motor loads such as AC.

Your best practice is good house keeping. Pay attention to the power cords behind your rack. They make just as much noise as any wire. Keep them 6 inches from any signal or speaker cable. I don't think you want to bundle them together either. They will disrupt each other. Try and keep all your wiring spaced apart from each other.

 

[Kingrex]

Not that I'm aware of, but it's sort of Impossible to know unless any said noise is removed. Short of proper cbl dressing + routing that's all one can do generally speaking. My question was specific to rex comments on in wall radiating to items close by.

Sure draining everything at the rack would appear to be a good idea along with the endless grounding products / methods, but that gets too far into the weeds WRT my question.

Noise that you don't notice till its gone. That is usually RF. Ralph from Atmasphere explains it much better, but it has a way of masking the signal circuit to some degree that is not a hum or radio out the speakers. It becomes a loss of frequency. That is where a filter on the AC power wire can help.

I don't think that is what a Ground Box is adressing. I am not fully sure what a ground box does. Outside possibly reduce spurious voltage that can be measured across chassis and I assume in the circuit in the equipment. But I don't really know. Ground boxes don't really make sense. They are at times a parallel path and parallel paths are ground loops. So why do the work. All I can say is, most everyone I know who bought a ground box never sells it. Not unless they are moving to another ground box they like better. I need to get one for myself.

 

[Cellcbern]

Noise that you don't notice till its gone. That is usually RF. Ralph from Atmasphere explains it much better, but it has a way of masking the signal circuit to some degree that is not a hum or radio out the speakers. It becomes a loss of frequency. That is where a filter on the AC power wire can help.

I don't think that is what a Ground Box is adressing. I am not fully sure what a ground box does. Outside possibly reduce spurious voltage that can be measured across chassis and I assume in the circuit in the equipment. But I don't really know. Ground boxes don't really make sense. They are at times a parallel path and parallel paths are ground loops. So why do the work. All I can say is, most everyone I know who bought a ground box never sells it. Not unless they are moving to another ground box they like better. I need to get one for myself.

FYI - here is one explanation of what a grounding box does: https://www.russandrews.com/us/section-1-understanding-the-grounding-system/

Similarly: http://www.puritanaudiolabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Ground-Master-PDF.pdf

Nordost's explanation: https://nordost.com/blog/whats-the-difference-between-earth-signal-and-chassis-ground/

I use the very inexpensive Groundmaster City (one each for chassis and signal grounding - you can't have both on the same component) which presumably dumps noise riding on a component's ground into the house ground via the wall duplex (no additional rods in the soil). It makes a clear enough audible imrovement that I haven't tried any of the more expensive grounding boxes. Link to review below:

FYI:ttps://v2.stereotimes.com/post/puritan-audio-labs-groundmaster-city-and-routemaster-system-by-terry-london/

Note that in my system signal grounding the amp and sacd player via unused rca inlets made a bigger improvement in sound quality than chassis grounding the power conditioner and PS 9.0 power supply. For those who want to see if "grounding" makes a difference in their systems but are skeptical of all of the high price gear, the Groundmaster City is a good way to go. Note that you can attach 2-3 components to a single Groundmaster City device. You don't need the "Routemaster" unless you have a lot of components.
.
FYI: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/34717-chassis-or-signal-grounding-why-it-works/

 

[Kingrex]

FYI - here is one explanation of what a grounding box does: https://www.russandrews.com/us/section-1-understanding-the-grounding-system/

Similarly: http://www.puritanaudiolabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Ground-Master-PDF.pdf

I use the very inexpensive Groundmaster City (one each for chassis and signal grounding - you can't have both on the same component) which presumably dumps noise riding on a component's ground into the house ground via the wall duplex (no additional rods in the soil). It makes a clear enough audible imrovement that I haven't tried any of the more expensive grounding boxes. Link to review below:

FYI:ttps://v2.stereotimes.com/post/puritan-audio-labs-groundmaster-city-and-routemaster-system-by-terry-london/

Note that in my system signal grounding the amp and sacd player via unused rca inlets made a bigger improvement in sound quality than chassis grounding the power conditioner and PS 9.0 power supply.

FYI: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/34717-chassis-or-signal-grounding-why-it-works/

I don't know what I think of the Russ Andrews claim. I think they are incorrect. I got in over my head on Audionirvana about ground boxes. I emailed Ralph direct. I pretty much stepped out as I don't get it.
Ralph was saying RF is more a phenomenon. I don't think its stray electrons that just drain away.
@Atmasphere maybe Ralph can comment.

If you take a decent multi meter and touch it to the ground spade on a piece of equipment, then take the other probe and touch other parts of the chassis, I bet you see up to 70mV of potential. It will jump all over. 70, 35, 15, 100, 40. Its constantly jumping. I think a ground box is dumping some of this. But that is just a hunch. I don't really know. I don't have a ground box to measure the before and after.

FWIW, I believe in ground boxes enough I asked Shunyata to be a limited dealer of just that product. It would be the only other product outside Torus isolation transformers that I believe in that much, that is associated with power, that I would offer as a way to improve the electrical infrastructure of a home. They told me no. I only use Shunyata as a recognized name. Entreq or other may be just as or more effective.

 

[gleeds]

Kinrex, it was interesting to read your post today on the Shunyata grounding solution. Just last week I visited one of the industry's premier reviewers listening rooms to hear his system and to present our amplifiers for his evaluation and consideration for a review. Included in the system was the Shunyata Altaira grounding box. After first listening to our amplifiers without the unit he suggested we insert the grounding box so it was a fair comparison with his amplifiers.

All I can say is WOW!!!
The improvement was not subtle so I will be ordering one this week for more experimentation. While grounding solutions have been around for years there seems to be greatly increased interest in their use for high-end systems and I can hear why! More when I get a better handle on its effects in my own system.

 

[gleeds]

I might add any Shunyata dealer should allow you to do a home demo of their device. Besides that's what a dealer is there for so if they say no find another dealer

 

[Kingrex]

I was going to call Suncoast and see what Mike has to offer. Yes I want to try it. I did do a consult for a client. He did all the electrical as well as grounding as I directed. He then tried a chassis ground box and heard nothing.
FWIW, I consider how I have a panel made up to be a significant improvement on system grounding. I have measured up to 70mV of potential in a panel when made up per NEC but no attention to detail and where the neutrals and grounds are landed. But Im pretty confident that is not all of it.

By the way Gleeds, did you go with a signal or chassis ground. I was going to go with signal. I have heard a few people say they get great results that way.

 

[gleeds]

Signal ground.

 

[Cellcbern]

I was going to call Suncoast and see what Mike has to offer. Yes I want to try it. I did do a consult for a client. He did all the electrical as well as grounding as I directed. He then tried a chassis ground box and heard nothing.
FWIW, I consider how I have a panel made up to be a significant improvement on system grounding. I have measured up to 70mV of potential in a panel when made up per NEC but no attention to detail and where the neutrals and grounds are landed. But Im pretty confident that is not all of it.

By the way Gleeds, did you go with a signal or chassis ground. I was going to go with signal. I have heard a few people say they get great results that way.

I think whether or not signal or chassis grounding has more impact is component/system dependent, and also a function of how the chassis grounding is executed. With the Puritan Groundmaster City devices I've been testing signal grounding makes a much bigger impact on sound quality than chassis grounding (probably 70-30). However I have heard other systems and devices where the reverse was true. I have not heard Shunyata Altaira but hope to in the near future. I have heard Tripoint, CAD, Entreq, Nordost, Telos, and SGS. All provided an audible improvement with Tripoint and Telos making the biggest difference to my ears.

I would expect superb execution from Shunyata. The one thing I don't get is why with a device like the Altaira that is dumping noise into the house ground via the wall duplex, with (presumably) circuitry that prevents reverse contamination, a "Sigma" grounding cable for example would provide a bigger audible improvement than a "Venom" grounding cable. I have the same question with regard to Entreq for example which dumps the noise into a box of minerals (simulated rod in the soil). They offer a hierarchy of grounding cables at different prices, but I have not heard/seen an explanation of why different conductor metallurgy, geometry, shielding, etc. impacts sound quality in a circumstance where noise is presumably draining in one direction only. Not saying higher end grounding cables don't make a difference, I would just like to know why they do.

 

[gleeds]

Your question on the Sigma vs.the Venom is a very good one. I'll likely start with a Venom cable to see if the results I heard are the same with that affordable attachment.

I understand units from Tripoint and CAD can run into the tens of thousands. At roughly $3k from Shunyata in a small and well crafted chassis it seems like a decent value, and an outsized one if the results in my system match those achieved at my recent listening session. The system included known world class components and approached $1mm and used two Altaira (1) on the amplifiers and a second for front end components.

 

[Kingrex]

By Kingrex in red

I would expect superb execution from Shunyata. Agree The one thing I don't get is why with a device like the Altaira that is dumping noise into the house ground via the wall duplex, with (presumably) circuitry that prevents reverse contamination, If its presenting reverse contamination, how is it dumping voltage. Or do you mean noise from the earth ground back to the Altaira. And if each outlet in the box is isolated, why do I need multiple boxes. A friend has 3. One for amps, 1 for digital, 1 for preamps. He says its better as you add more boxes. a "Sigma" grounding cable for example would provide a bigger audible improvement than a "Venom" grounding cable. I have the same question with regard to Entreq for example which dumps the noise into a box of minerals (simulated rod in the soil). I though the minerals we lacking electrons and looking to pull them from the attached equipment. They offer a hierarchy of grounding cables at different prices, but I have not heard/seen an explanation of why different conductor metallurgy, geometry, shielding, etc. impacts sound quality in a circumstance where noise is presumably draining in one direction only. Not saying higher end grounding cables don't make a difference, IF you have stray mV you want to give a path to some place, that path would need to be highly conductive (silver) with low capacitance. Geometry and material could very well matter. I would just like to know why they do. Same here. Why on earth would a parallel path from the signal to earth ground not create a ground loop with ground in the power supply.

 

[Alrainbow]

Look at your cables, the majority of them are shielded using aluminium, that is because it is the most efficient shield for electrical noise.

Not true lol it’s cheaper copper is better but it’s more exp

 

[Kingrex]

Your question on the Sigma vs.the Venom is a very good one. I'll likely start with a Venom cable to see if the results I heard are the same with that affordable attachment.

With cable prices as they are, I bet there are a lot of DIY that are going to go wild building their own. My friend Joe Pitman use to take dead soft silver wire from a Jewelry store. He would sleeve it in cotton, then use conductive mylar braid over the top and ground 1 end of the shield. He never had a real ground box to tie it too. He just went to the earth ground or screw on the components and brought them all to a heavy block of copper with a hole drilled to terminate. I tried his cables as well as 10 AWG copper, 16 AWG copper, 22 AWG silver. I went to a block of copper too. I never heard any change. Going to a Altaira, who knows.