Better than Live??

Groucho

New Member
Aug 18, 2012
680
3
0
UK
of course, and you know this already micro, as the measured resistance, inductance and capacitance increase between the two cables (or interconnects) thus eventually you will be able to hear differences between them as long as they are swapped between the same preamp (or source) and amp. You may also measure dielectric properties as well to get better correlation. to better come to grips with various conductor geometries etc you can also pulse the cable, even through the exisiting preamp if you want, the pulse takes care of any group delays issues that could sneak by the standard RCL checks.

I'd love to see any evidence that these very simple 'parasitic' components, present in 'trace' quantities in any cable, could have any effect on the sound whatsoever. If it's merely a case of capacitance and inductance then the effects can be simulated or measured accurately. But the capacitive and inductive differences between cables are very small. Maybe you could point to one that's ten times higher than another, but ten times very little - in the context of a real world source impedance and amp input impedance - is still very little. Is lower shunt capacitance and series inductance beneficial anyway? Some manufacturers boast of their ability to pass a RF square wave unmodified, while some boast that their 'networks' add extra capacitance and inductance to attenuate RF (though that particular manufacturer appears not to understand cable technical basics - and it was someone else in this forum who pointed that out!). Is there any evidence whatsoever that there is any other factor at play in cables? Something non-linear that happens in cheap cables, but not in the ones rolled on the thighs of virgins?

To maintain that no two components in an audio system are the same, and that any perceived difference in sound must be down to differences in 'trace parasitics' that are too small or too mysterious to be measured seems like a dead end. It's a truism: no two components are alike, but without some sort of indication as the audibility of the difference, it is simply an argument using the 'fallacy of the sliding scale'. No one can argue with it, no matter how good the evidence for 'experimenter bias', 'confirmation bias' or whatever you want to call it, and the complete absence of blind testing in virtually any audiophile's experience - it's incredibly onerous, time consuming and no one would want to do it: it's only a hobby. That's where measurements could save the day, but every audiophile knows that they don't mean anything. There's also no argument with the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome: if expensive cables exist then there must be a reason for it. It's just common sense. It is impossible that people could be persuaded to part with $10,000 for a piece of wire if it didn't do something amazing. But is it..?

The Emperor's New Clothes syndrome also comes with an unpleasant side that says that if you can't hear a difference, or are aware of your own biases, it automatically makes you less of an audiophile. Less discerning. Less refined. A philistine. A mere objectivist. There is a penalty for failing to imagine, or failing to pretend to hear, differences that don't exist.
 
Last edited:

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
What I meant was if it's good. ...If it's good to be cloning other people?

...And eventually we'll be able to replicate the same live experience (performance).
...But at a different time, and at a different place too.

Better than Live? No, different.

Human cloning is not good. Consistent manufacturing quality is good. Replication of the live experience could be. I'll let you know when I see it. :)

Tim
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
of course, and you know this already micro, as the measured resistance, inductance and capacitance increase between the two cables (or interconnects) thus eventually you will be able to hear differences between them as long as they are swapped between the same preamp (or source) and amp. You may also measure dielectric properties as well to get better correlation. to better come to grips with various conductor geometries etc you can also pulse the cable, even through the exisiting preamp if you want, the pulse takes care of any group delays issues that could sneak by the standard RCL checks.

i am not saying cables can't or dont sound different

Tom,

I love when people know what I know and seem not to know what I asked ... My question was direct "Before addressing you cable question, can you quantify with exact numbers what you mean by "given enough differences in their design"? Surely numbers need units and to put an unit you need a know physical quantity.

How do you describe "measured resistance, inductance and capacitance increase"? Using a three dimensional matrix? What dielectric properties are you referring? Dielectrics have tens of properties! Do you think that conductor geometries affect sound quality either than by changing RLC?
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
I'm not sure what you're talking about. In this case, I'm talking about your own references:



...which strike me as neither vague nor ambiguous. You are saying the quality of sound is measured, production specifications are created from those measurements, and those specifications are applied in manufacturing to control the consistency of the sound of the product. I don't think I'm mischaracterizing your statement; it was straightforward and clear and I'm pretty sure I understood it. The only thing that remains hard to understand is how you can believe this and continue to hold that the quality of sound cannot be captured by and predicted with measurements.

Tim

Tim,

I am addressing that manufacturing use special measuring techniques to perform quality control, that assures them consistency, that are not related to the specification measurements or correlated with sound control. It has been used for decades - it is generically called manufacturing process signature analysis. Your consistency argument does not prove anything per se. Sorry if I can't make myself understood , I now give up on this line of thought.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
Tim,

I am addressing that manufacturing use special measuring techniques to perform quality control, that assures them consistency, that are not related to the specification measurements or correlated with sound control. It has been used for decades - it is generically called manufacturing process signature analysis. Your consistency argument does not prove anything per se. Sorry if I can't make myself understood , I now give up on this line of thought.

I don't think I'm the one being vague and non-specific. You may have to actually say something to have a chance of making yourself understood.

Tim
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
I don't think I'm the one being vague and non-specific. You may have to actually say something to have a chance of making yourself understood.

Tim

Brett d'Agostino explained it in WBF, it is clearly written in the Burmester site, you did not agree, why would my words be considered differently?
Curiously you highlighted almost all the words except those which are very, very specific - manufacturing process signature analysis.
I am now out.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
Brett d'Agostino explained it in WBF, it is clearly written in the Burmester site, you did not agree, why would my words be considered differently?
Curiously you highlighted almost all the words except those which are very, very specific - manufacturing process signature analysis.
I am now out.

Micro, "manufacturing process signature analysis" without any description of methodology, is about as specific as "Quality Assurance." It appears that what you're "out" of is a ratiionale.

Tim
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing