Best under $20K car with good enconomy

[Rupunzell]

Bigger is NOT better..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHFsmsGPDVc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeqvS_fsjcs

There are always larger vehicles on the road that any smaller vehicle can crash into or with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-4hCivUo7s

There is no substitute for driver skill, alertness and being completely aware of your driving environment while driving and active safety. Passive safety is secondary in the larger scheme of vehicle safety..

 

[amirm]

I don't think anyone has said that bigger is always better and that driver skill is not important. I watched the videos and didn't see them supporting any point of view. The first two videos are of the ancient Ford Explorers. Today, almost all cars have stability control which sharply mitigates roll over risks. The last video is a semi truck hitting an SUV and both catching on fire. No one can eliminate the inevitable.

What we are saying is that all else being equal, larger vehicles have an advantage. As the previous video showed, they have a longer crumble zone so are able to absorb more energy before the driver cabin is deformed. That doesn't mean a larger car doesn't have any accidents. It simply means in those situations, it has an advantage.

 

[rblnr]

Don't know your timeframe, but the new Subaru Impreza comes out in a few months. All Subarus get IIHS Top Pick safety ratings. 36 mpg for an AWD car is impressive, and they always handle a bit sharper than most of the competition. Uber-reliable too. Don't know though that AWD is much of an issue for where your son is located, though even in rain it's nice to have.

 

[amirm]

Thanks Bob. Just read about that in a car magazine. It is definitely tempting to wait. We don't get much snow here but when we do, and we live on a hill, life can stop for up to a week! No one plows anything here to speak of and the snow melts and freezes overnight and then becomes a nightmare scenario if you have to be some place or need to get home.

 

[Rupunzell]

Larger vehicles MIGHT have a safety advantage in real world crash conditions. What is far more important is how any vehicle protects it's occupants. To believe a larger vehicle is safer is over simplification of a very complex problem and this wide spread belief has been used as a marketing advantage...

Watch this crash of Allan McNish drive in he AUDI R18 (Dallara chassis) at triple digit speeds at this weekends 24 Hours Of LeMans.. This is a race car that weights nee 1200 pounds..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jnibRyrK-o

Allan survived this incident and did an interview about this later. More proof that larger, heavier is not always safer.

Consider why and how did Allan survive this crash in such a light weight car?

Think back to when Detroit and others built 4000+ pound cars that killed due to their lack of proper engineering for occupant survivability in any crash. Crumple zones must be designed properly for this design element to function properly.. Occupant restraints, interior objects that occupants might contact during a crash and numerous other factors are all part of how survivable any vehicle might be in a crash.

For any vehicle to be safe during a crash, it must be designed in and properly tested under real world conditions, weight and size alone will not achieve this goal.

I don't think anyone has said that bigger is always better and that driver skill is not important. I watched the videos and didn't see them supporting any point of view. The first two videos are of the ancient Ford Explorers. Today, almost all cars have stability control which sharply mitigates roll over risks. The last video is a semi truck hitting an SUV and both catching on fire. No one can eliminate the inevitable.

What we are saying is that all else being equal, larger vehicles have an advantage. As the previous video showed, they have a longer crumble zone so are able to absorb more energy before the driver cabin is deformed. That doesn't mean a larger car doesn't have any accidents. It simply means in those situations, it has an advantage.

 

[amirm]

As you quoted from me, all of us appreciate that fact. But the laws of physics and statistics point to the opposite picture of overall safety as this new report from National Insurance Safety Institute just shows: http://media.nbclosangeles.com/documents/sr4605.pdf

"......looked at by vehicle style, minivans have the best record with a driver death rate of 25. SUVs aren't far behind at 28. Pickups average 52 driver deaths per million registration years. Cars average 56, but smaller cars fare worse than bigger ones. For example, 4-door minicars have a death rate of 82, compared with 46 for very large 4-doors. “The rollover risk in SUVs used to outweigh their size/weight advantage, but that’s no longer the case, thanks to ESC,” says Anne McCartt, the Institute’s senior vice president for research.

It’s not just weight that gives SUVs an advantage. It’s also their height and other factors. When cars and SUVs of similar weight are compared, the SUVs have lower death rates.

....

The relative risk of different types of vehicles also has changed. For 1999-2002 models, the average death rate for SUVs was 82 per million, nearly as high as the 88 per million for cars. In the new analysis, the death rate for SUVs is half that of cars."

 

[amirm]

Back to the original topic, Automobile magazine compared a number of small cars and gave its pick to Ford Focus. As a review though, it was quite lame not having hardly any data.

 

[Rupunzell]

Newton also figured out, greater mass in motion carries greater potential energy. Your bigger, heavier vehicle might who-lop a smaller one, but when it hits something solid, that bigger, heavier vehicle and it's is going to suffer bad along with it's occupants.

Many believe the Titanic was un-sinkable due to it's size and weight.. reality proved them wrong.

Don't you think these studies by any organization is driven by who funds them and their own agenda... just like audio review magazines?

The head on collision does not happen often if at all in real world conditions. Yet, the media drama plays to an individual's primal survival instincts. This is how that brand of marketing works.

During the early 1960's General Motors recruited a number of average drivers from the local shopping mall for a dynamic road obstruction avoidance test. They put these drives in a typical GM sedan and set them off around the GM test track at 50 Mph. At some point on the track, a machine rolled a barrel in front of these drivers, with three seconds of reaction time to avoid the rolling barrel. Over 90% of the drivers failed this test. Most slammed on the braked causing the car to slide out of control or those who tried to steer away from the rolling barrel either lost control of the car or hit the barrel.. Any wonder why car manufactures build the vehicles they do or why heavier vehicles are strongly promoted?

Beyond this, larger vehicles are far more profitable. The Cadillac Escalade became the most profitable vehicle made.

My every attempt to educate you on the hard facts and realities of vehicle safety has proven to an utter and total failure. My failure here tells me not to discuss any thing audio related for some folks here have already have their minds made up and no amount of hard factual reality can or will alter that.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw



Bernice
Who is basically done here.

As you quoted from me, all of us appreciate that fact. But the laws of physics and statistics point to the opposite picture of overall safety as this new report from National Insurance Safety Institute just shows: http://media.nbclosangeles.com/documents/sr4605.pdf

"......looked at by vehicle style, minivans have the best record with a driver death rate of 25. SUVs aren't far behind at 28. Pickups average 52 driver deaths per million registration years. Cars average 56, but smaller cars fare worse than bigger ones. For example, 4-door minicars have a death rate of 82, compared with 46 for very large 4-doors. “The rollover risk in SUVs used to outweigh their size/weight advantage, but that’s no longer the case, thanks to ESC,” says Anne McCartt, the Institute’s senior vice president for research.

It’s not just weight that gives SUVs an advantage. It’s also their height and other factors. When cars and SUVs of similar weight are compared, the SUVs have lower death rates.

....

The relative risk of different types of vehicles also has changed. For 1999-2002 models, the average death rate for SUVs was 82 per million, nearly as high as the 88 per million for cars. In the new analysis, the death rate for SUVs is half that of cars."

 

[amirm]

My every attempt to educate you on the hard facts and realities of vehicle safety has proven to an utter and total failure. My failure here tells me not to discuss any thing audio related for some folks here have already have their minds made up and no amount of hard factual reality can or will alter that.

The what??? The nature of a forum is that we discuss things. If we all just agreed with each other or took our marbles and went home the first time someone didn't, there would be nothing but cobwebs here.

You want to leave, leave but do it for a real reason. You want to educate me, by all means do so. But don't do it to get me to agree with you. That's not the reason we come here.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw

Don't know why that makes reminds me of a pig line I heard from an investment banker talking about how much to sell a company for: "pigs get slaughtered!" [i.e. don't get greedy]

Bernice
Who is basically done here.

I hope when you wake up in the morning, you revisit this. There is no world peace being settled here....

 

[Gregadd]

2012 Ford Focus. I've seen it around and am impresssed.

 

[amirm]

That is the one my son wants too. I hear due to Japanese earthquake car prices are a bit higher than they would be in summer so will keep researching for now.

 

[Gregadd]

That is the one my son wants too. I hear due to Japanese earthquake car prices are a bit higher than they would be in summer so will keep researching for now.

I was at my dealer checking on a Ford Flex. They are in stock. Including the hatchback.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

How freagin' cute is this? Have seen a few in the last week puttering about town!

 

[amirm]

Indeed. My son wanted that because of the looks. It is a good car but expensive. It competes more with the Mini which outperforms it in every area. Given the unknown reliability and dread of dealing with local Chrysler dealership, I talked my son out of it .

 

[Matt193]

My favorites out of the under $20K group are the Ford Fusion, Mazda 6, Mazda 3, and the less expensive Subarus. I have rented a Fusion a few times and have really liked them. I used to have a old Diesel Golf and it was rather spacious for a compact car but I'm not sure how safe it actually was.

 

[amirm]

Thanks Matt.

 

[garylkoh]

My favorites out of the under $20K group are the Ford Fusion, Mazda 6, Mazda 3, and the less expensive Subarus. I have rented a Fusion a few times and have really liked them. I used to have a old Diesel Golf and it was rather spacious for a compact car but I'm not sure how safe it actually was.

I agree on the Ford Fusion and Mazda 6 & 3. Whenever I travel on business, I rent a car from Hotwire 24hrs before I arrive and can usually get a full-sized car for < $25 a day (sometimes <$20 a day). Then when I get there, I ask if they have a Mazda or a Ford Fusion, and since these are much "cheaper" than the car I booked and paid for, they will usually give it to me........ unfortunately, once I had to drive a Mercury Grand Marquis for 4 days because the clerk at the counter won't give me anything else.

 

[Tedd]

Most reliable car I've ever owned is my Mazda 3 GT. Only shortcoming was the tires wear out quickly.

I'd recommend you test drive a Mazda 3 Skyactive. My daughter just bought one and it's peppy and the gas mileage is outstanding. Crash test ratings are also very good. And they hold their resale value better then most cars.

 

[treitz3]

Hello and welcome to the WBF, Tedd.

 

[Tom1356]

An off lease used Audi A4?