Best phono stage?

[Cableman]

Heh.

So is a dog different from the dogs bollocks (Which, in the UK means the best)

TOTALLY DIFFERENT. let me be clear. The Momentum was AWFUL - a right POS compared to the three others I evaluated.

 

[Cableman]

Were you listening mainly to animal sound recordings???

It was hard to tell what one was listening to with that phono

 

[Pb Blimp]

Has anyone compared the CH P1 to the ARC Ref 10 Phono?

Thanks,

 

[XV-1]

my assumption when we are talking the EMT vs CH P1 is a matter of taste and maybe even more the synergy with his system altogether.
Tube vs SS at their best if we can be a bit extremest for making a point.

Richard will went for the 4 box P1 set up eventually as i gathered, i think he got the P1 for now and a X1 on the way.
i truly understand his stand about it
i wish i will get the chance to do it also.

For these prices the phono should also give you a lap dance.

Seems the ones buying the CH P1 are reviewers with probably insane industry accommodation prices.

What happened to the mega priced internet darlings of a couple of years ago? Vitus and Trinity?

 

[Atmasphere]

Hi
can you explain the relevant for the pops and ticks?
thank you!

Yes.

If the preamp has stability problems, it will exacerbate ticks and pops on the LP surface that are otherwise inaudible, bringing them to the front. The instability is very much like ringing, and is usually caused by poor 'stopping' of the input means on whatever devices the preamp uses for gain (if a transistor, the base needs to be 'stopped', if a tube, the grid and if a mosfet, the gate). Please keep in mind this is in a rather small nutshell, but if the gain devices in the preamp are not properly stopped, not only will the preamp make more ticks and pops, but input loading of the cartridge will be mandatory for proper sound and the unit may be prone to RFI problems.

So a clue that you may be hearing more ticks and pops that you should is often that you had to pay attention to loading the cartridge correctly to get it to sound right! IOW, if the sound really does not change with the cartridge loading, you'll probably also hear less ticks and pops, despite having the same or better bandwidth.

FWIW, tube preamps are less prone to this problem than solid state, on account of the fact that it is harder for tubes to rectify RF energy on their grids, while this is quite easy with a transistor or mosfet.

 

[byrdparis]

Yes.

If the preamp has stability problems, it will exacerbate ticks and pops on the LP surface that are otherwise inaudible, bringing them to the front. The instability is very much like ringing, and is usually caused by poor 'stopping' of the input means on whatever devices the preamp uses for gain (if a transistor, the base needs to be 'stopped', if a tube, the grid and if a mosfet, the gate). Please keep in mind this is in a rather small nutshell, but if the gain devices in the preamp are not properly stopped, not only will the preamp make more ticks and pops, but input loading of the cartridge will be mandatory for proper sound and the unit may be prone to RFI problems.

So a clue that you may be hearing more ticks and pops that you should is often that you had to pay attention to loading the cartridge correctly to get it to sound right! IOW, if the sound really does not change with the cartridge loading, you'll probably also hear less ticks and pops, despite having the same or better bandwidth.

FWIW, tube preamps are less prone to this problem than solid state, on account of the fact that it is harder for tubes to rectify RF energy on their grids, while this is quite easy with a transistor or mosfet.

thank you! this info is very interesting. i have never thought about it.

 

[byrdparis]

For these prices the phono should also give you a lap dance.

Seems the ones buying the CH P1 are reviewers with probably insane industry accommodation prices.

What happened to the mega priced internet darlings of a couple of years ago? Vitus and Trinity?

Im guessing their is a lot of PPL (relatively) that bought the P1 and their are not reviewers or got any accommodation prices,
i dont know how much each was cashing for it, and i don't care, it is not my business to care about it. there is some other on this forum that have the P1 no?

regarding the lap dane, - not only they don't give you that, they also need an out side power supply to get better
but this is another story.

for the internet darling,,, i guess they are still cool and great phono stages... maybe they don't receive so much Love because they wont stand out in particular.
i will love to auditioned every one of them... but sadley i cant. i was went and bought what i was thought will be best for my money on this time point.
i was traveling between a lot of phono stages thru my audio life. time to hammer down for the "last one"... and see if its sticks.

 

[Atmasphere]

thank you! this info is very interesting. i have never thought about it.

I'm very convinced that unstable phono sections such as you see in most Japanese receivers made the 1970s-1980s raised an entire generation of audiophiles that expect ticks and pops on LPs and are thus largely responsible for the development of the CD.

When an LP is produced, part of the process is the artist and engineer have to sign off on the test pressing, which in part is used to determine if there are any surface defects on the project. IOW there really should not be any ticks or pops on the LP when new unless the production signed off on it. Yet many audiophiles went digital because of ticks and pops. Well, turns out a lot of that is just the phono preamp itself.

So whatever the 'best' phono preamp is, a lack of ticks and pops without any loss of 'air' will be one of its signature traits.

 

[byrdparis]

I'm very convinced that unstable phono sections such as you see in most Japanese receivers made the 1970s-1980s raised an entire generation of audiophiles that expect ticks and pops on LPs and are thus largely responsible for the development of the CD.

When an LP is produced, part of the process is the artist and engineer have to sign off on the test pressing, which in part is used to determine if there are any surface defects on the project. IOW there really should not be any ticks or pops on the LP when new unless the production signed off on it. Yet many audiophiles went digital because of ticks and pops. Well, turns out a lot of that is just the phono preamp itself.

So whatever the 'best' phono preamp is, a lack of ticks and pops without any loss of 'air' will be one of its signature traits.

i think in the end of the day most of the pops and ticks we heard are coming from electrostatic charge or\and defects on the vinyl from the printing process itself.
so if we rap around the idea that our stereo system, carts and the whole set up are clear and detailed - how come a very good phono stage is about to get them (pops and ticks) out of the way?
we are actually need to hear more of them if they excessed.

but - your explanation were actually spot on with what i felt when i upgraded my analog system, any step i took further, it was indeed more quiet and reviling with less and less pops and ticks.
now, after what you mentioned , i get it!
(a good RCM was also a great investment in that area too )

 

[Atmasphere]

i think in the end of the day most of the pops and ticks we heard are coming from electrostatic charge or\and defects on the vinyl from the printing process itself.

There really should not be any defects in the printing process that are that bad! In addition, static charges causing loud pops is actually not that hard to solve.

I am very used to not hearing a single tick or pop on an entire LP side. This includes vintage vinyl as well, as long as its not scratched.

Some years ago I had the phenomena of the phono preamp's role in this illustrated to me in spades. A friend of mine and I both had near the same system except for the preamp. One day we both bought the same UHQR title from a record dealer; for some reason his was noisy and mine was dead silent. He was thinking of returning his LP, but he brought it over to my house and it was dead silent on my system as well. Since the only difference between our systems at the time was the preamp, he brought his over, and lo and behold there were the missing ticks and pops.

Phono preamp stability is one of the most under-rated and yet one of the more important properties of any phono preamp. I feel for folks that spent $thousand$ and still have ticks and pops...

 

[ack]

Phono preamp stability is one of the least understood issues. BTW, thinking of the FM Acoustics' de-clicker circuit, it might be a trick, in the sense that turning it off de-stabilizes the unit, so the on/off switch is for show

 

[rockitman]

Phono preamp stability is one of the least understood issues. BTW, thinking of the FM Acoustics' de-clicker circuit, it might be a trick, in the sense that turning it off de-stabilizes the unit, so the on/off switch is for show

I have heard the de-clicker works. Bottom line, if occasional clicks bother you during LP play, change your format and play a cd/file....lol

 

[byrdparis]

I have heard the de-clicker works. Bottom line, if occasional clicks bother you during LP play, change your format and play a cd/file....lol

i think its a matter of experience with a large collection of a really good LP's and with analog all together.
sure you cant get rid of the pops and clicks entirely! everyone on this forum and others knows that, but im guessing that a lot of us around here hearing much less of them in our rigs
when we put our effort and very earned money in to our set up's.

till "Atmasphere " explanation, though i sense i got clearer and clearer presentation and less pops as i upgraded my set ups, i didnt actually thought about it in a sense of electric manner situation.
i always thought that maybe a better cart with a really good RCA and mint\new records is the big jump for cleaner sound.


till

 

[awsmone]

Atmaspheres comments are enlightening
i have noticed since i cleaned up the RF on my phono the grooves are much quieter

i don't adjust load any more just use step ups

 

[byrdparis]

Atmaspheres comments are enlightening
i have noticed since i cleaned up the RF on my phono the grooves are much quieter

i don't adjust load any more just use step ups

i dont have so much of experience with SUT's, though i was trying a bunch of them in the past two years, some Ortofon, Tamura, and my last one i sold a few weeks ago (mainly to raise more money to buy the P1) the Kondo SFz.
I was worked with Luxman eq500 and EAR 88 with the Kondo and it was a fantastic result, but the lack of versatility and inputs were a bummer and drove me to get the P1.
i am very excited to hear how those current inputs will sound with my cart's.

the EAR 912 will push my Luxman preamp out for a while, and i will also get a really nice tube phono beside my CH-P1.

 

[Pb Blimp]

I am no expert on the phono stability issue so maybe I am off on this but it seams to me this issue is not as black and white as it is being portrayed here. Maybe Ralph or someone can help me. To my understanding there is a balancing act that must take place in stopping the rectification of rf or cartridge induced high frequency noise that must be managed against the negative effects of cartridge unloading on voltage attenuation. Its not as simple as a phono stage is stable or not. To my understanding the goal for any phono stage (for a given amount of cartridge induction and cable capacitance) is to flirt with stability visa-vis the incumbent rf stopping (mandated by the aforementioned capacitance and induction) so dynamics are maximized visa-vis voltage maximization since phono preamps are generally voltage gain mechanism not current. So stability at the expense of dynamics is not entirely a good thing, ergo the reason manufacturers provide options to stop clicks with switches and loading options.

Comparing two cables, the one with higher capacitance may exacerbate clicks and necessitate the election of lower loading to dampen the clicks (through a switch or otherwise) but this will be at the expense of voltage attenuation in a voltage gain mechanism which on the margin has performance consequences particularly in dynamics. Same with the variation in cartridge induction combine with a given cable capacitance. Phono stages must be flexible devices and certainly it is possible to set one up so its instability is distasteful, but that my be more an indication of the competence of the user than the inadequacy of the stage.

 

[Atmasphere]

To my understanding there is a balancing act that must take place in stopping the rectification of rf or cartridge induced high frequency noise that must be managed against the negative effects of cartridge unloading on voltage attenuation. Its not as simple as a phono stage is stable or not. To my understanding the goal for any phono stage (for a given amount of cartridge induction and cable capacitance) is to flirt with stability visa-vis the incumbent rf stopping (mandated by the aforementioned capacitance and induction) so dynamics are maximized visa-vis voltage maximization since phono preamps are generally voltage gain mechanism not current. So stability at the expense of dynamics is not entirely a good thing, ergo the reason manufacturers provide options to stop clicks with switches and loading options.

Comparing two cables, the one with higher capacitance may exacerbate clicks and necessitate the election of lower loading to dampen the clicks (through a switch or otherwise) but this will be at the expense of voltage attenuation in a voltage gain mechanism which on the margin has performance consequences particularly in dynamics. Same with the variation in cartridge induction combine with a given cable capacitance. Phono stages must be flexible devices and certainly it is possible to set one up so its instability is distasteful, but that my be more an indication of the competence of the user than the inadequacy of the stage.

OK- you have this wrong. Reducing the circuit's susceptibility to RF also reduces the issues of loading at the same time.

The reason is that loading is done to affect the phono preamp and not the cartridge, unless you are using a high output MM cartridge. What the loading does is to reduce the Q of the tank circuit caused by the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the cable. This circuit resonates when the cartridge makes energy. RFI is thus injected directly into the preamp! The loading resistor detunes the tank circuit and thus the RFI. But if the phono preamp is immune to RFI, the loading will make no difference.

'Stopping' used in the context I mentioned earlier will not affect bandwidth or dynamics; in fact if anything its the other way 'round, since what stopping does is it gets rid of oscillation. When that is gone, the circuit is lower noise which is good for dynamic contrast.

So if you see a preamp that requires loading, it means that its unstable, and can't possibly be the 'best' (if that exists in the first place...). Even when the loading is in place you'll still hear more ticks and pops than you should. That's not accurate reproduction!

 

[ack]

Pb Blimp, what is atmasphere is saying is entirely correct, and especially when he says "The reason is that loading is done to affect the phono preamp and not the cartridge" - part of the problem here is that cartridge manufacturers blindly recommend "loading" values, and care not explain what is really going on.

The issue of UHF resonance is well understood by the technical folks, but still mostly unheard of or hardly understood by audiophiles. Thankfully, we have a technical thread that you can read http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15077-Cartridge-Loading-A-Misnomer which describes it all well, and as a conclusion, see this post in there http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ing-A-Misnomer&p=277880&viewfull=1#post277880 with the following quote from Lyra:

a phono cartridge provides the highest resolution and widest dynamic range when the phono stage load resistance is of as high of a value as possible (10kohm rather than 100ohm). Realistically too high load resistance values will force the phono stage into distress due to insufficiently damped and too-large levels of ultrasonics and frequency peaking [ack: refer to research in post #32], so practical load resistor values need to be a compromise between a value that is low enough to keep out of the phono stage's danger zone, while loading the cartridge as little as possible. The reason why less capacitance in the tonearm cable is an advantage is that doing so allows the use of higher load resistance values at the phono stage input.

All of these are well-understood electrical phenomena, and for example, looking at the last sentence, one should strive for the lowest possible tonearm cable capacitance - which is the reason, I for example, chose a tonearm with the Valhalla wire which sports such exceptionally low capacitance. That allows me to load the cartridge at 1k ohm, and the dynamics are explosive. I think that thread explains in great detail what exactly is going on.

In the same post, you will find an important reference to the Hagtech resonance calculator, http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

So a well designed phono stage will have NO LOADING options for MC, and you will find a few like that, e.g. the Genesis and the upcoming Spectral Phono - and that's because they do not suffer from UHF resonances, and that's a major feat.

 

[awsmone]

Thx Ack

Very interning indeed

I too have found low capacitance very helpful and huge dynamics

Just installed Valhalla on my second phonostage with big improvements

It’s intersting my current mode phono has no loading at all, and super quiet even with 0.3mv cart

 

[ack]

Right, and this low capacitance is also the reason I modified my XP-25 and removed the lowest 100pF loading capacitor option - and that entire knob/option and circuit is entirely useless for MC, though I suspect Pass included it in order to further affect the sound - tone controls.