Beethoven's Symphonies - Otmar Suitner (Denon Remaster)

[LL21]

Hi All,

I am not a serious Classical music person, but i have studied music many years ago (piano), and learned to appreciate classical. I am very, very, very happy to be listening to a set of Beethoven's Symphonies...well recorded, mastered so that's nice (Denon did the work in Japan).



I own Hogwood (period instruments), von Karajan '63 (remastered), Furtwangler (took forever to get each of his supposed 'best' of each one...remastered by boutique firms largely in France) and Harnoncourt.

i am starting to think Suitner is becoming my favorite now of the above. After years of enjoying von Karajan and Hogwood...Suitner is starting to take the inside lane very very quickly. 1st, 4th and 5th so far.

I would say Suitner is very academic, old school (like Horowitz on piano) with tremendous restraint and yet dexterity of expression within the restrained dynamic envelope...by comparison Harnoncourt is a bit wild...his 9th is wonderfully romantic but the rest a bit too unbridled. von Karajan a classic...richly romantic and sweeping by comparison to the Suitner...which is saying something since von Karajan is far more constrained than Harnoncourt for me...and he has great technicals.

...but somehow, i am really starting to appreciate the Suitner...a wonderful discovery. For someone who likes Glenn Gould (only on Bach), who likes Suzuki on Bach...and Pletnev on Scarlatti's piano works...i find the restraint of Suitner's Beethoven so far to be wonderful in that it allows me to appreciate the notes, the tempo...rather than get swept away in these large scale expressions of strings and crescendos. Very interesting.

Just my two cents...

 

[Jazzhead]

LL, thanks for the heads up, sourced it at CD Japan , will give it a spin.

 

[rbbert]

IIRC, these were the first Beethoven Symphonies recorded digitally; they were certainly the first on CD ( in spite of von Karajan's infamous endorsement "all else is gaslight" when discussing CD's)

 

[jfrech]

We don't post about music and software enough...Lloyd thanks for teeing this one up.

Anyone have the Esoteric set and care to comment?

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/80478/Rudolf_Kempe-Beethoven_The_Nine_Symphonies-Hybrid_Stereo_SACD

 

[astrotoy]

I have the original vinyl box set of the Kempe Beethoven symphonies which came out on EMI SLS892 in 1974. I checked my data base and it looks like I paid 25GBP for the set used, or about $40, a lot less than the Esoteric price of $300. In general the sonics of the mid '70's EMI releases was quite good. I'll have to pull it out to see what it sounds like. I always liked Kempe as a conductor. He was quite underrated. He did a complete multibox series of the orchestral music of Richard Strauss as well as a very respected Lohengrin. His Scheherazade was on the TAS Super Disc List.

Larry

Did the Suitner Beethoven first come out on vinyl? Denon did a bunch of digital vinyl releases in the late '70's. I know there was an early EMI digital set of the Beethoven Symphonies with Kurt Sanderling conducting which came out in 1981 or 1982 (I don't collect digital vinyl in general so I don't have it).

 

[LL21]

...Did the Suitner Beethoven first come out on vinyl? Denon did a bunch of digital vinyl releases in the late '70's. I know there was an early EMI digital set of the Beethoven Symphonies with Kurt Sanderling conducting which came out in 1981 or 1982 (I don't collect digital vinyl in general so I don't have it).

I think there is vinyl i have seen dating from 1982...PCM recording or something...by Denon. My CDs are dated 2005.

 

[LL21]

LL, thanks for the heads up, sourced it at CD Japan , will give it a spin.

I re-listened to and liked Suitner's 1-5, 7-8 a lot. I still prefer Harnoncourt's 9th and even von Karajan. Will listen to Suitner's Beethoven 6th.

 

[dmnc02]

I re-listened to and liked Suitner's 1-5, 7-8 a lot. I still prefer Harnoncourt's 9th and even von Karajan. Will listen to Suitner's Beethoven 6th.

Do you have Furtwängler's 1954 live recording of the 9th on Tahra?

 

[LL21]

Do you have Furtwängler's 1954 live recording of the 9th on Tahra?

Yes, i have all 9 Furtwangler of what the various forums say is the 'best' of each symphony. I have the Tahra remastered 2008 1954 Furtwangler 9th...i will tee it up this evening. i really like Furtwangler a lot. Blindly, i would say Tokhan Sokhiev and Furtwangler are my favorite 2 conductors. One passed away years ago, and one is in his 30s.

 

[dmnc02]

Yes, i have all 9 Furtwangler of what the various forums say is the 'best' of each symphony. I have the Tahra remastered 2008 1954 Furtwangler 9th...i will tee it up this evening. i really like Furtwangler a lot. Blindly, i would say Tokhan Sokhiev and Furtwangler are my favorite 2 conductors. One passed away years ago, and one is in his 30s.

While dated from a sonic standpoint, I think it is an electrifying performance, especially in the last movement. As much as I like Harnoncourt's approach with the earlier symphonies, I do tend to prefer a full-size orchestra and modern instruments for the 9th. Just personal taste, of course.

 

[LL21]

While dated from a sonic standpoint, I think it is an electrifying performance, especially in the last movement. As much as I like Harnoncourt's approach with the earlier symphonies, I do tend to prefer a full-size orchestra and modern instruments for the 9th. Just personal taste, of course.

I think Furtwangler's Beethoven series are brilliant...i really need to revisit them in light of the recent re-listenings to Suitner. I likened Suitner to Horowitz...old school with phenomenal technique, discipline and yet dynamic...but in truth Furtwangler is a much better person to liken to Horowitz as i recall. I will have to relisten to the Furtwangler 9th.

 

[GaryProtein]

. . . .but somehow, i am really starting to appreciate the Suitner...a wonderful discovery. For someone who likes Glenn Gould (only on Bach), who likes Suzuki on Bach...and Pletnev on Scarlatti's piano works...i find the restraint of Suitner's Beethoven so far to be wonderful in that it allows me to appreciate the notes, the tempo...rather than get swept away in these large scale expressions of strings and crescendos. Very interesting.

Just my two cents...

When I listen to Glenn Gould on Bach, I am always reminded that I am listening to a performance of Glenn Gould playing Bach, not Bach being performed by Glenn Gould, but I like him anyway.

It's interesting that you enjoy the restraint of Suitner to be appealing because I found him a little bland considering the dynamics I had become used to with Beethoven.

YMMV.

 

[LL21]

When I listen to Glenn Gould on Bach, I am always reminded that I am listening to a performance of Glenn Gould playing Bach, not Bach being performed by Glenn Gould, but I like him anyway.

It's interesting that you enjoy the restraint of Suitner to be appealing because I found him a little bland considering the dynamics I had become used to with Beethoven.

YMMV.

Yes, i admit...i like Pletnev, Moravec who are more contemplative. On Bach Goldberg, i would go to Rosalyn Tureck next...

...and on sympthonies, i would probably say in order of the ones i own: Furtwangler, Suitner, Hogwood, von Karajan, Harnoncourt. if you average them...probably average more reserved than what is more broadly available in the Symphonies.

In the Russian symphonies, i still like to 'chew' my symphonies rather than get swept up in soaring crescendos...so i like to focus on the notes and the parts and smaller dynamics and passages...that's why i like Tugan Sokhiev for my Russian...magnificent imho. Still very rich, tapestry, Russian afterall...but i can really dig into the individual passages with loads of nuance and detail which i enjoy.

as you rightfully say, YMMV

 

[LL21]

Well, have heard the Suitner 6th...and i like it every bit as much as the 1-5, 7-8th...so really only the 9th is a bit behind imho. I have heard 1, 3rd from Hogwood...and i think they are nice because of their scale and period instrumentation which has a very different tenor...and Hogwood is quite precise and nuanced/cerebral n his approach. However, i prefer the additional bit of old school romanticism i hear from Suitner and Furtwangler...which gets taken to the next level with von Karajan but perhaps (perhaps) two steps too sweeping for my personal taste.

Guess i better listen to the von Karajan again...but so far Suitner seems to be in first place all around for me (except 9th where i like Harnoncourt best).

 

[LL21]

Suitner 5th Symphony to von Karajan 5th:
- von Karajan: faster, sweeping, dynamic and he manages to keep that tempo all the way thru...romantic...inter-passage dynamics have less contrast; i am caught up in the majesty of Beethoven, the rush of emotive swells in the magnificent music
- Suitner: slower (by a meaningful touch), inter-passage dynamics have greater contrast so i feel like there is more to 'chew on' in the notes/passages.

Whereas with von Karajan, there is more sweeping emotion and crescendo (which i accept is a big part of Beethoven's symphonies). I hear more individual groups of instruments playing their respective parts (part mastering i presume...but also part conductor). I also feel like i can better 'read the music' with Suitner because the pauses, the gaps, the notes, even the crescendos seem to follow a reading that seems read from the pages of the written notes...whereas von Karajan feels like he lifted the musical notes from the pages of Beethoven and overlayed a sumptuous, driving interpretation on top where i hear von Karajan in the music (not necessarily a bad...just different).

And to von Karajan's credit...throughout the sweeping majesty of his interpretations, the music does not falter or stumble technically...its faster but not rushed. (There is a big difference as my old teacher used to say)

Hard to call...could depend on the day. I would say...gotta listen to Furtwangler!!!

Furtwangler
- a brilliant 5th
- he has FAR deeper crescendos, stronger pauses, an imprint of extreme discipline, technical brilliance and yet a very very crisp yet dynamic reading of the 5th...which REALLY uses each group of instruments SEPARATELY to create musical interplays between different parts of the orchestra.
- for me, a real mastery of the entire orchestra and of the musical writing...he combines the sweeping romantic gestures of von Karajan...but places them within smaller parts of the orchestra...so that others can play other parts of the music IN CONTRAST to the sweep...fascinating.
- really makes one reconsider the 5th
- for me, the best of the 3 interpretations (these 3 definitely preferred to Harnoncourt or Hogwood)...just wish it were a modern recording/mastering instead of something a bit scratchy/war-time sounding...i listen to few if any such recordings...but his readings are so compelling, i can still do so and enjoy them.

 

[GaryProtein]

I definitely agree with you on the von Karajan and Furtwangler impressions.

 

[LL21]

I definitely agree with you on the von Karajan and Furtwangler impressions.

Hi Gary...great stuff and thanks for continuing to read thru this. Have you heard Dvorak's Symphonies by Suitner? I have the classic set...Kertesz...which is great. Just curious as i am now looking into Suitner and Brahms, Dvorak and Bruchner seem to be his thing. I am not as big a fan of Bruchner, so am thinking about the Dvorak Suitner. Any thoughts?

 

[FrantzM]

Not truly a Suitner fan. Beethoven was a Romantic before the times. There is unrestrained and unveiled lyricism and emotion in his music and a lot of these. Suitner seems too restrained , too controlled for my Beethoven. Karajan and Furtwangler had that passion and pathos ...

This said there is a very interesting 1 to 9 on CD by Osmo Vanska on BIS. One of the most dynamic Recordings I have ever heard and good performances throughout. Prefer it to the Suitner..
Available at Amazon
Now if it comes for the Beethoven 6, I have heard many renditions. My favorites remain those by Sir Adrian Boult ... Was definitely not a (Rock ? ) star a la Karajan but a solid conductor who understood Beethoven extremely well. (among other composers)

 

[dmnc02]

Vänskä’s is a nice set, but very far from Furtwängler and Karajan and closer to the Harnoncourt (although with a full orchestra and modern instruments): fast tempi and a very precise articulation.

Böhm gets my vote for the 6th.

 

[astrotoy]

I bought the Karajan 1963 set when it first came out, when I was a freshman in college. It was $19.95 or something like that for the box of 9 symphonies. I used to play them through headphones and a little amp and AR Turntable while I was studying. When I had to write papers, I would start with the first symphony and continue through until I finished the paper. Not the best way to write a paper - of course we had typewriters then and no error correction. One of the most striking parts of the set was Gundula Janowitz singing soprano in the 9th - her soaring voice in the quartet toward the end of the last movement took my breath away.

BTW, I checked and I have 3 different Furtwangler 9ths - from 1954 and 1951, both with Schwarzkopf singing the soprano role (I am guessing her husband or husband to be Walter Legge may have had something to do with the recording) and a war time recording from Berlin - in front of Hitler as I remember.

For the 6th I like the early stereo Bruno Walter, and for the 5th, the great Carlos Kleiber recording.

Larry

PS. As a junior, we had a sophomore, Bob Levin, living across the hall. He had a piano in his room and would play the 32 Beethoven Piano Sonatas straight through. He later went on to become an accomplished fortepiano player, with quite a few recordings, as well as a professor at the college.