Ballfinger M063 both 1/4 track and 1/2 Track playback

[Ron Resnick]

But can it get even better with a R2R?!!

With the right tapes, absolutely!

Analog people choosing not to get into tape are matters of policy and allocation of resources and cost/benefit analysis, not a matter of ultimate sound quality.

 

[Zeotrope]

Thanks Ron.
What about the life of a tape? In terms of how many times it can be played before the SQ is significantly different vs when new?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks Ron.
What about the life of a tape? In terms of how many times it can be played before the SQ is significantly different vs when new

Sorry, I am not qualified to answer.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

supposed to be more than an LP, given tape path cleaning and the usual measures

 

[andromedaaudio]

Thanks Ron.
What about the life of a tape? In terms of how many times it can be played before the SQ is significantly different vs when new?

Here is a copy playing of a 60 year old mastertape that was made in germany from elvis presley.
The copy was made in 2020 .

 

[Zeotrope]

[edited]
Are there any Ballfingers in N. America?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

[edited]
Are there any Ballfingers in N. America?

not heard of any.

my SWAG is that maybe they did not spend the time/money to make the Ballfinger decks multi-voltage. maybe to do with the motor drive? they might see what scale they build to and whether that supports expanding the design to accommodate that. i'm no engineer so really cannot speculate what it takes for multi-voltage, but sufficient torque and flexibility of the drive system could be a factor. it's a bit more involved than spinning a platter.

 

[Zeotrope]

not heard of any.

my SWAG is that maybe they did not spend the time/money to make the Ballfinger decks multi-voltage. maybe to do with the motor drive? they might see what scale they build to and whether that supports expanding the design to accommodate that. i'm no engineer so really cannot speculate what it takes for multi-voltage, but sufficient torque and flexibility of the drive system could be a factor. it's a bit more involved than spinning a platter.

I heard from Ballfinger. They will ship to Canada, so I assume they will ship to the USA. 16 week lead-time.

Still not sure I want to drop $16k USD without hearing it first, and I worry about parts availability. I don't think it's as easy as visiting an "electronics guy" when something fails. Modern processors and boards being what they are, it will not be as easy to fix these as the older machines.

On a side note: I actually think that Nagra's experience with R2R is what makes their Turntable drive so interesting. Spinning a platter has more in common with spinning a reel than I initially thought.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I heard from Ballfinger. They will ship to Canada, so I assume they will ship to the USA. 16 week lead-time.

Still not sure I want to drop $16k USD without hearing it first, and I worry about parts availability. I don't think it's as easy as visiting an "electronics guy" when something fails. Modern processors and boards being what they are, it will not be as easy to fix these as the older machines.

On a side note: I actually think that Nagra's experience with R2R is what makes their Turntable drive so interesting. Spinning a platter has more in common with spinning a reel than I initially thought.

what other RTR decks have you considered? there are low risk, high performance, relatively easy to service, USA choices.

 

[Zeotrope]

None really, I need a thin form factor as this would have to be wall mounted. I don't think anyone is making new decks other than Ballfinger or the Greek company, or are there others?

I'm not sure I want to take the plunge either... tape content is very low compared to vinyl, and unless the tape is a very close copy to a master tape, I think my Nagra Reference TT with Nagra cartridge and incoming HD Phono will sound better. Certainly Nagra has said as much, and they have a ton of tape experience, obviously.
I also think that Nagra will launch a new R2R deck for their 75th Anniversary in a few years. Just a guess on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I heard from Ballfinger. They will ship to Canada, so I assume they will ship to the USA. 16 week lead-time.

Still not sure I want to drop $16k USD without hearing it first, and I worry about parts availability. I don't think it's as easy as visiting an "electronics guy" when something fails. Modern processors and boards being what they are, it will not be as easy to fix these as the older machines.

On a side note: I actually think that Nagra's experience with R2R is what makes their Turntable drive so interesting. Spinning a platter has more in common with spinning a reel than I initially thought.

16 k usd .

Is that just the transport.
Or is a preamp included

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

None really, I need a thin form factor as this would have to be wall mounted. I don't think anyone is making new decks other than Ballfinger or the Greek company, or are there others?

I'm not sure I want to take the plunge either... tape content is very low compared to vinyl, and unless the tape is a very close copy to a master tape, I think my Nagra Reference TT with Nagra cartridge and incoming HD Phono will sound better. Certainly Nagra has said as much, and they have a ton of tape experience, obviously.
I also think that Nagra will launch a new R2R deck for their 75th Anniversary in a few years. Just a guess on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised.

there´s a recent French totally new machine from ground up too

New Reel to reel from Analogue audio France TR1000

I just read this announcement anyone know anymore? https://www.stereo.net.au/news/analog-audio-banking-on-reel-to-reel-revival-with-tr-1000-tape-recorder

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Mike Lavigne]

None really, I need a thin form factor as this would have to be wall mounted. I don't think anyone is making new decks other than Ballfinger or the Greek company, or are there others?

with your Nagra turntable, doubtful these new smaller form factor tape decks will have much to offer you performance wise. i could be very wrong. but the only way to find out is to hear one in a proper system context compared to a known tt.

I'm not sure I want to take the plunge either... tape content is very low compared to vinyl, and unless the tape is a very close copy to a master tape,

tape provenance is one issue, the original recording quality is maybe more an issue. tape content availability has much to do with your musical tastes. if you want iconic recordings many times those are not the best sounding, even at low generation. and the best ones will cost you. but there are plenty of recently recorded high quality tapes that are well done. but the performances are not consistent. so it's a mixed bag. but it does take a good deck with high quality heads and output electronics to get blown away by tape. especially when you have high level vinyl. but when you hear great tape playback, nothing can compare.

I think my Nagra Reference TT with Nagra cartridge and incoming HD Phono will sound better. Certainly Nagra has said as much, and they have a ton of tape experience, obviously.
I also think that Nagra will launch a new R2R deck for their 75th Anniversary in a few years. Just a guess on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised.

seeing that Nagra hit the turntable marketplace at $150k+ USD retail level, hold on to your hat for their expectation for a new Nagra tape deck. likely over $200k.

 

[Zeotrope]

with your Nagra turntable, doubtful these new smaller form factor tape decks will have much to offer you performance wise. i could be wrong. but the only way to find out is to hear one in a proper system context compared to a known tt.

seeing that Nagra hit the turntable marketplace at $150k+ USD retail level, hold on to your hat for their expectation for a new Nagra tape deck. likely over $200k.

Indeed, I would not be shocked if a new Nagra "Reference line" R2R came in at $200k retail. If you add the cost of the Reference TT+Cartridge+HD Phono, it's just under $300k.

But, there will be a less expensive "HD Turntable", perhaps around $100k or less (just my guess).

Nagra may do the same with a Reference line R2R and then an HD version.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

None really, I need a thin form factor as this would have to be wall mounted. I don't think anyone is making new decks other than Ballfinger or the Greek company, or are there others?

the Ampex ATR-102 decks from ATR Service Inc will have parts availability and ease of serviceability beyond any of these new decks. you can buy a better than new ATR and choose degrees of performance; from dead stock to extreme hot rodding. and it's all USA stuff.

as far as performance; i can only say that the middle level of hot rodding of these Ampex decks is superior to my long term reference, the Studer A-820 with the King Cello outboard electronics. and while they are not cheap, they will be in the $20k range to start with fully ready to go. so if you decide a larger form factor is a consideration, this should be something to think about.

 

[Foxbat]

Absolutely correct, a nicely gone over ATR-102 from ATR Services or Myriad Magnetics in Phila will be a much better investment.

Is the Ballfinger going to be around in 5 or 10 years?

 

[Zeotrope]

Thanks guys, checking out the ATR site now.

Also, when Analog Productions says they transferred the tape they are selling “from a copy of the original master tape”, does that mean the tape they are selling is the 2nd copy from the master?

From Analogue Productions comes another classic title in our Ultra Tape reel-to-reel album reissue series. Each is a 15 ips, ¼-inch analog tape copy (IEC equalization) sourced from a copy of the original analog master tape. Transferred real-time, using an ATR-modified Ampex Tape Machine with flux magnetic heads

 

[Foxbat]

Depends on what you consider to be the "master". In most cases you are getting the 3rd generation tape at best.

 

[adrianywu]

Thanks guys, checking out the ATR site now.

Also, when Analog Productions says they transferred the tape they are selling “from a copy of the original master tape”, does that mean the tape they are selling is the 2nd copy from the master?

You have to bear in mind that copying a tape is a much more straightforward process than cutting lacquer. There is no mechanical process involved. As long as the machines are properly aligned and of good sound quality (as most machines used in professional studios tend to be), the loss is much less than when cutting vinyl. And there is no need to apply any compression which might be necessary for cutting LP. In the end, you need to listen for yourself to decide. The best LPs are cut from analogue sources anyway, which means tapes. Any hiss on the tape will be transferred to the vinyl. There are sources that will make copies of production masters that were used to cut lacquers. That means the tape copy will be the same generation as the lacquer if you want to look at it that way.

 

[Edward Pong]

I agree coping a tape is pretty straight forward, but the amount of loss really depends on the playback & record electronics used to duplicate that tape. With stock to stock machines the results will be the baseline. If there are custom record & playback amps in this chain, the loss will be much less.

My experience with tape playback amps, the differences can be quite surprising. For instance I have been using a tape playback amp based on the Western Electric 437a tube executed with all silver transformers etc. since I started UltraAnalogue Recordings. It's sound was very very good....

We just finished a tape amp using the Western Electric 300b amp & I have to say, the changes were surprising in all areas of sound... the timbres, transient speed, dynamics, naturalness, rhythmic pulse & drive of the music were all taken to another level.... There is no free lunch in audio!

So in tape duplication, as in all things, nothing is simple!

Ed