BALANCED v. UNBALANCED

Hi for AR Ref 3, is balanced usually better than Unbalanced? Also, if I put in a Single ended in, balanced out, will I get a drop in SQ? I have to have a balanced out because my power amp, the Ref 110, is balanced only.

Using the balanced output of the REF3 results in increased quality - the measurements clearly show it. If your source is balanced use it in balanced mode, otherwise connect it to the RCA connector and press the SE switch. The preamplifier is optimized for a balanced source, but is sounds (and measures) excellent in SE mode.

I really had a great time using a CD7 - REF3 - REF110. This system is now resident at less than five kilometers from me powering Sonus Faber Amati Anniversary and I still enjoy it a lot frequently.
 
Thanks yes, my output is balanced, so if I get in a RCA input, I should put it into SE mode, not balanced, correct?
 
IMHO, if you have fully balanced gear that gives you the additional choice of SE, you will probably do well to use balanced cables where you can. Balanced cables seem to be less effected by the variables that often come with SE.
 
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Thanks yes, my output is balanced, so if I get in a RCA input, I should put it into SE mode, not balanced, correct?

No, if the output is balanced (XLR) you should use the balanced input of the REF3 using a XLR balanced cable.
 
My experience in comparing cables is that SQ with SE cables can vary considerably, much less so with balanced. And, if you need a long run, balanced is the way to go.
 
Why do most people on this site ignore these engineering FACTS, and not use PRO balanced cables that cost 5% of the audiophile approved cables?

Mogami or Canare Pro cables are just as good!

http://www.markertek.com/product/sc...cable-3-pin-xlr-male-to-female-100-foot-black




It does not matter the length of the cable- if true balanced the performance is always better than single-ended. It is true that internally balanced circuits will cancel out even ordered harmonic distortion, leaving the odds. However, the odds alway operate at a lower level then the evens, for example the 3rd (being the only odd order that has a musical sound to the human ear) is considerably lower level than the 2nd might have been were it still present, and its presence nevertheless masks the higher orders that are at even lower levels.

Even ordered harmonics (the 2nd in particular) will make for a more lush sound (warmth) but will also mask lower level detail. Its a good idea to get rid of it if you can.

Of course, this being high end audio, there is no consensus :) But if you want to understand how well balanced operation really works, you need look no further than your own recording collection. Any recording made in the 1950s or 1960s was done with balanced lines, long before any exotic interconnect cable industry existed, yet the better you get your stereo to perform the better these recordings (many of which are highly respected 50 years on) sound as well. You don't run into some sort of ceiling because you start hearing the defects in the cables used back then.

The whole point of the balanced line system was to eliminate cable artifact. Now you would think audiophiles would love to do just exactly that, but a surprising amount come up with some considerable push-back, but I suspect it is mostly because they don't understand how the balanced system works and the benefits that are thus derived. This is true of a lot of manufacturers too!

The benefits, if done right:
1) ZERO cable interaction, and you can run the cables almost any length. This allows you to place the amplifiers right by your speakers, and have your preamp somewhere else than right between the speakers, perhaps near your listening chair.

2) lower noise, blacker background, less likelihood of ground loops

3) inexpensive cables can be used with world-class results

If equipment is internally balanced the benefits are:

1) lower noise, up to 6db less per stage of gain

2) lower distortion, which does not compound from stage to stage within the circuit

3) greater immunity to power supply noise

Disadvantages

Balanced equipment *might* cost a little more. In high end audio, due to the Veblen effect, this tends to not play out in practice.

You may have noticed That I said 'done right' above. There is a balanced standard of sorts, a set of practices that should be followed if you are to realize all the benefits. Here is the standard:

1) pin 1 is ground, pins 2 and 3 are signal, pin 2 being 180 degrees out of phase with pin 3. In the US, pin 2 is non-inverting.
2) the ground connection is ignored. Neither the input of the preamp/amp uses it, nor the output- it is for shielding only, no signal current. This, BTW, is where most high end companies screw up; by putting ground current through the shield, cable immunity is lost.
3) the input that is being driven should be low impedance (600 ohms is the line level standard), failing that the source should be able to drive that load anyway. Again, most high end companies fail in this regard as well- there are a lot of tube balanced preamps that can't even drive 10K ohms, let alone 600 ohms. BTW, all magnetic/moving coil cartridges and all tape heads are balanced sources and are capable of driving some lower impedances that would choke most tube preamps! If some aspect of this low impedance issue is not utilized, cable immunity will be lost.
4) the balanced connection shall consist of a twisted pair of wires to carry the signal, which is shielded by a common shield. No dual-shielded wires (unless the second shield is concentric around the first), no weird ground boxes, so situations where the non-inverted signal is shielded by the inverted signal, etc.

As a footnote, differential and balanced are not the same thing. It is best when the two are found together. However it is possible for a circuit to be balanced and not differential (such circuits tend to have more noise and higher parts count) and it is also possible to have differential operation without balanced operation. In fact all single-ended amplifiers are examples of the latter, although the differential aspect is usually ignored by the designers of such circuits.



mep, if you recall reading about almost any push-pull amplifier, you might recall reading that even ordered distortions are canceled in the output section, for example this happens in a Dynaco ST-70. The harmonics of the original signal however are left intact.
 
You forgot to add 'eyes'.
That seems to be the most important part.

Yes, eyes are a blessing as well, but definitely not the most important sense as far as audio goes... Maybe for you, but definitely not for me!
 
Yes, eyes are a blessing as well, but definitely not the most important sense as far as audio goes... Maybe for you, but definitely not for me!

Ah going to be a technical semantic geek here :)
Well one could say the eyes (or specifically the part of the brain associated to seeing/visual stimulation) is rather important, studies done with blind people has shown they still use that part of the brain to improve their acuity-perception relating to sounds; localised-environment-ambient-etc.

Cheers
Orb
 
Why do most people on this site ignore these engineering FACTS, and not use PRO balanced cables that cost 5% of the audiophile approved cables?

Mogami or Canare Pro cables are just as good!

http://www.markertek.com/product/sc...cable-3-pin-xlr-male-to-female-100-foot-black

This statement is correct, assuming that the equipment involved supports the balanced standard (AES file 47).

The reason there is dispute on this topic is that a great deal of balanced high end audio products (ARC for example, not bashing on them in particular, I can name many more!) do not support the balanced standard. As a result, you hear differences with the cables, which does not happen when the standard is supported.
 
I agree that balanced interconnect is the way to go. A host of reasons have been cited. I doubt seriously that, given a choice, balanced ever sounds inferior, given competent cables. But, the other thing is that using balanced is just a pleasure. They are reliable, sturdy and they minimize ground loops and other noise. The anachronistic RCA connectors are like clumsy dinosaurs by comparison. But, like many things in audio, and unlike the dinosaurs, RCA connectors just will not go away. But, there is no performance, cost or ease of use reason for that.
 
Right now I am no fan of balanced. Some history: A while back, I acquired a REL sub and an older ARC tube amp. Recognizing, luckily, that the ARC amp was a balanced design, I was told by one of my local dealers ( and the dealer who i bought the REL from) that I needed to contact the REL people ( at the time Sumiko) to determine how to connect the "balanced" REL sub to the "balanced" ARC amp. i did this and the guys at Sumiko explained to me the hook-up. I also asked them at the same time about my ss amp.. a Rowland model 8. To this they assured me that the standard hook-up would be ok. IOW, the left and right channel to the left and right output of the amp and the ground cable to the ground (negative) of the amp. Now after several months, i have been noticing that the amp seems to get hotter and hotter as it plays. ( This used to be a mildly warm running amp before I had it hooked up to the REL!) So, I ask some of the techs on another forum what's going on...to my surprise and to my horror, I find out that the Rowland is fully balanced as well. Therefore, the probability that the amp has been driving into a short is high and I have now possibly damaged the amp...:mad:
So, for the near future, it would seem that the amp is going to have to take a trip back to the factory for repairs and I will have to re-think how the "balanced" sub woofer can ever work with the "balanced" ss amp. ( Particularly since there is no grounding screw on the amp). I guess this aspect of 'balanced' never occurred to the designers of this gear....the possibility of damage due to certain hook-up is very real. Personally, i fail to see the value ( Plus, most of us are running connections of a few meters at most...we're typically not talking of ic runs of 40+ feet here, like in the pro audio world, where this implementation makes a lot more sense IMHO) of the perceived additional electrical isolation vs. the potential for a) damage to the gear and b) the additional cost of implementing the balanced circuit. Ugh.:(
 
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Personally, i fail to see the value ( Plus, most of us are running connections of a few meters at most...we're typically not talking of ic runs of 40+ feet here, like in the pro audio world, where this implementation makes a lot more sense IMHO) of the perceived additional electrical isolation vs. the potential for a) damage to the gear and b) the additional cost of implementing the balanced circuit. Ugh.:(

I agree. If you follow good practices for the electrical supply and hookup of your audio system it's possible to have a noise-free system using single ended components and interconnects in a home environment, meaning you don't really need two of everything adding cost and complexity to your system. Subjectively, I don't appreciate the reduction of even order harmonics while leaving the odd order untouched, it makes for a drier, less musical and realistic sound. I think the advantages of using balanced gear in a home environment are completely overstated and/or not necessarily true.
 
Right now I am no fan of balanced. Some history: A while back, I acquired a REL sub and an older ARC tube amp. Recognizing, luckily, that the ARC amp was a balanced design, I was told by one of my local dealers ( and the dealer who i bought the REL from) that I needed to contact the REL people ( at the time Sumiko) to determine how to connect the "balanced" REL sub to the "balanced" ARC amp. i did this and the guys at Sumiko explained to me the hook-up. I also asked them at the same time about my ss amp.. a Rowland model 8. To this they assured me that the standard hook-up would be ok. IOW, the left and right channel to the left and right output of the amp and the ground cable to the ground (negative) of the amp. Now after several months, i have been noticing that the amp seems to get hotter and hotter as it plays. ( This used to be a mildly warm running amp before I had it hooked up to the REL!) So, I ask some of the techs on another forum what's going on...to my surprise and to my horror, I find out that the Rowland is fully balanced as well. Therefore, the probability that the amp has been driving into a short is high and I have now possibly damaged the amp...:mad:
So, for the near future, it would seem that the amp is going to have to take a trip back to the factory for repairs and I will have to re-think how the "balanced" sub woofer can ever work with the "balanced" ss amp. ( Particularly since there is no grounding screw on the amp). I guess this aspect of 'balanced' never occurred to the designers of this gear....the possibility of damage due to certain hook-up is very real. Personally, i fail to see the value ( Plus, most of us are running connections of a few meters at most...we're typically not talking of ic runs of 40+ feet here, like in the pro audio world, where this implementation makes a lot more sense IMHO) of the perceived additional electrical isolation vs. the potential for a) damage to the gear and b) the additional cost of implementing the balanced circuit. Ugh.:(

The problem you are having has nothing to do with the balanced line system and has everything to do with how subwoofers can get hooked up to power amps incorrectly, and how power amps can develop problems entirely on their own! So I would be careful to make that distinction!
 
Two years ago, this thread was about connecting a XLR balanced output to a RCA unbalanced input. This connection can be problematic because there are three different types of balanced output stages and no single scheme will work in all cases.

.................................... i did this and the guys at Sumiko explained to me the hook-up. I also asked them at the same time about my ss amp.. a Rowland model 8. To this they assured me that the standard hook-up would be ok. IOW, the left and right channel to the left and right output of the amp and the ground cable to the ground (negative) of the amp...........................
So, for the near future, it would seem that the amp is going to have to take a trip back to the factory for repairs and I will have to re-think how the "balanced" sub woofer can ever work with the "balanced" ss amp. ( Particularly since there is no grounding screw on the amp). .............................................................
This description just does not appear to be a XLR balanced interconnect system at all. There is no 'ground' let alone a 'ground cable' in the interconnect system. There is a shield, but the shield is not required to be connected at the receive end for the balanced system to work.
A grounding screw is not part of the balanced interconnect system.
 
I have had zero problems for decades using balanced cables w. XLR for decades. Some components were true balanced internally, some used op amp inverter circuits. I have heard no sonic disadvantage vs. unbalanced/quasi-balanced RCA connections. And, system hum and noise has always been nonexistent for me, even with ear to the speaker.

The key is XLRs are a pleasure to use. They just work like they are supposed to. I hate RCAs, which are usually too tight/too loose into the jack and require two hands for connect/disconnect, often with the protective barrel coming unscrewed from the necessary twisting. I no longer have any RCA's in my system. I just do not want them, especially not for the 10 meter runs to my surround channels.
 
Two years ago, this thread was about connecting a XLR balanced output to a RCA unbalanced input. This connection can be problematic because there are three different types of balanced output stages and no single scheme will work in all cases.


This description just does not appear to be a XLR balanced interconnect system at all. There is no 'ground' let alone a 'ground cable' in the interconnect system. There is a shield, but the shield is not required to be connected at the receive end for the balanced system to work.
A grounding screw is not part of the balanced interconnect system.

The issue with the REL is due to the connection scheme that it uses. Th REL does not ( although it can) connect to the RCA output, instead it connects to the speaker output of the amp. I actually believe this to be a superior connection scheme. Problem is that if one is using a 'balanced' amp, then there is apparently no grounding at the speaker outputs on the amp. ( This is something that needs to be made VERY clear in the instructions of both the amp and the sub...and unfortunately it is not)
Ralph, my amp would not have developed this problem if it was a single ended amplifying device. The fact that is is 'balanced'...and because I was unaware of that ( as was the rep for the subwoofer) has lead to this unfortunate circumstance. Therefore, the benefit in my mind of the 'balanced' configuration has been overshadowed by the potential and actual damage to the amp by this incorrect hook-up. Yes, one can argue that this is not something that can be laid at the 'balanced' configuration...
 
The key is XLRs are a pleasure to use. They just work like they are supposed to. I hate RCAs, which are usually too tight/too loose into the jack and require two hands for connect/disconnect, often with the protective barrel coming unscrewed from the necessary twisting. I no longer have any RCA's in my system. I just do not want them, especially not for the 10 meter runs to my surround channels.

I'd agree, the Furutech CF series XLRs are especially nice to use and handle. But WBT and Furutech locking RCAs work fine too. Kind of a minor detail though, I see no advantage whatsoever to balanced audio components for home use beyond nicer connectors, and some real disadvantages in terms of complexity, expense and subjective sound quality with the even-order distortion being canceled. I'll keep my single ended tube gear thankyouverymuch!
 
Ralph, my amp would not have developed this problem if it was a single ended amplifying device. The fact that is is 'balanced'...and because I was unaware of that ( as was the rep for the subwoofer) has lead to this unfortunate circumstance. Therefore, the benefit in my mind of the 'balanced' configuration has been overshadowed by the potential and actual damage to the amp by this incorrect hook-up. Yes, one can argue that this is not something that can be laid at the 'balanced' configuration...
My understanding is you don't have the amp back yet. It may be that the hookup damaged it, but it might also be that it had no effect. We'll know better about that when the amp is sorted out. Getting hot can be caused by problems in the bias department too- the way you described it, the amp sounded fine just ran hot. That does not sound like damage due to hookup to me- if that were the case, it would not sound fine.
 

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