Avantgarde Loudspeakers: Solid-State or Tube Amps

[microstrip]

Quoted from TheAudioBeat Roy Gregory article on the new Trio's

"There was also a set of Trio XDs with BassHorns, which is where the listening started, but it was instantly apparent that, even in passive form, the G3/SpaceHorn combination was in a completely different league, leaving the older speakers sounding thin, disjointed and musically awkward. In fact, a direct blind comparison might lead you to question whether the G3 is a horn speaker at all, such is its sense of rounded warmth, body and integration. Voices and instruments were significantly more natural and more naturally dimensioned. The sense of pace and timing in music was far more explicit."


https://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/avantgarde_trio_g3.htm

 

[Skanda]

@marslo apologies if you have already explained this in another thread, but how did you land on REL for your trios vs. ag's basshorns. Any drawbacks or benefits?

I ask because I am in the process of buying a second home which is a loft space and I will finally have the room to try big horns should I choose to go in that direction. However, the basshorns might just be a little too much from a design standpoint and I do worry that they might interfere with the center imaging. Your REL set up seems really cool and very manageable in my new space - and is deff a little more budget friendly too.

I havent heard any AG's and have very little experience with horns except for some Diesis that I heard at Bob's in NYC. Of course I would try to listen before buying but the nearest pair to me is likely a couple hours flight. Does anyone here have experience listening to more modern electronic, wavepool, hip hop, and 80's synth pop on horns? A good speaker is a good speaker and should be able to do all genres justice but I havent really read much first hand experience from AG owners listening to that kind of stuff so I am just curious. I love my magicos and it's an easy choice to go for the m6 or something and some big block ss amps (ideally class a) but I'd like to try something new. I love when music pops out (not shouty) at you and so that's where I started thinking about horns...

 

[Ron Resnick]

I havent heard any AG's and have very little experience with horns

Does anyone here have experience listening to more modern electronic, wavepool, hip hop, and 80's synth pop on horns?

I think it is important to understand that not all horn speakers sound alike. AGs sound very different, to me, than many other horn speakers I have heard.

 

[microstrip]

I think it is important to understand that not all horn speakers sound alike. AGs sound very different, to me, than many other horn speakers I have heard.

Did you listen to the current versions?

 

[Skanda]

I think it is important to understand that not all horn speakers sound alike. AGs sound very different, to me, than many other horn speakers I have heard.

understood - I should have clarified...I meant AG specfically.
I listened to my own preferred tracks at Bob's in NYC on the diesis. While it sounded good to me, there were some other set ups at his audio lab that I preferred

 

[Ron Resnick]

Did you listen to the current versions?

I have not heard the Trio G3. I have not heard the very latest model of Duo.

 

[bonzo75]

I have not heard the Trio G3. I have not heard the very latest model of Duo.

Duos sound very different to trios

 

[bonzo75]

understood - I should have clarified...I meant AG specfically.
I listened to my own preferred tracks at Bob's in NYC on the diesis. While it sounded good to me, there were some other set ups at his audio lab that I preferred

I think Ron's point is there is no similarity between diesis, AG, tune audio, Cessaro, vintage Altecs, Jbl etc.

With horns there is also a high dissimilarity between lower and upper models of the same family with AG, tune audio, Cessaro hybrids vs range, and hORNs from poland.

So you can ask on the forum for recommendations all year long but ideally you should go out abd sample the different ones.

 

[Skanda]

i got ron's point i'm saying i should have clarified in my original question: AG Trio only - if you've owned one 10 yrs ago vs the latest model, doesnt matter, I'm interested in hearing your take on how it does with that kind of music. I would like to go listen but not only are they a flight away, I don't have the time and won't for a bit.

i'm still interested in marslo's story with his choice of rel irregardless of what his musical preferences are. i haven't seen that combo before and would like to read a first hand account.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I listened to my own preferred tracks at Bob's in NYC on the diesis. While it sounded good to me, there were some other set ups at his audio lab that I preferred

Why was the Diesis not your cup of tea?

 

[Skanda]

good question Ron, but i'll keep my comments brief as i don't want to derail this thread into a diesis vs. ag one. especially not when i am looking for some highly specific information on AG Trios.

i listened to the diesis caput mundi or ludo (not the big roma's) at Bob's probably 3 years ago at this point. it was deff pre covid and back when Bob had his lab set up in Flatiron. I like the form factor and thought they would work well in my nyc apartment. I don't remember the exact amp but it was a diesis integrated. i don't think Bob had the pilium burned in or turned on at the time and that was fine by me as I wasn't familiar with the brand, though i do love big power ss amps so that's probably part of why I didn't connect with the diesis.

at the time had magico s5mk2's in my home rig so maybe it was the difference in what was being presented vs what i am used to. on some choice hip hop cuts i felt the vocals sounded great but there wasn't enough oomf and drive on the low end. to me, they didnt sound as transparent and liquid as my magicos did and the "jump factor" wasn't there which lead me to believe that either it's not there on my recordings or a well made horn has the same jump as a well made cone and dome - both of which could be wrong conclusions. that day, the magico m2 and alsyvox both impressed me more. nothing against diesis and as a Rhapsody customer, I know Bob well enough to know that he would never choose to carry anything but the highest quality gear. I now only live in nyc part time and it's a big regret that i didn't get to go over to his new location to hear all the new toys but i hope to remedy that soon enough.

fwiw i value transparency, liquidity, big sound staging, and that attack when music feels like its ripping out of a speaker and grabbing you. i get all of that my m2 set up. however, i want more, not because there is a short coming on the m2's but because i will have a new space with more room to work with and a big speaker just plays BIG. sure an m6 with some big mono's could do the trick but i've always loved the look of AG and every description of the sound seems like something i'd enjoy but I just don't know if I'm barking up the wrong tree with my type of music. youtube can only tell you so much (little but i like to look at what a speaker looks like in a room and day dream ) and nobody is playing the type of music i regularly listen to on videos of AG Trios

i'd like to fly everywhere and listen to all the things but its just realistically not an option. at this price point buying blind isn't the worse thing. there are no truly horrible speakers just whether or not something is in line with your tastes. but to get the most enjoyment out of my journey, i like to short list a few a speakers and maybe travel to hear them. i can listen to a bunch of a stuff I know i will love at Bob's and it's not "out of the way" i'm just going back to nyc and I know i'll be happy with magicos or alsyvox. but for AG i have to go out of my way to the west coast of florida as that's the only place i know a dealer has them - maybe there is something closer that i am not aware of. i don't find myself in those parts very often so to schedule a trip just to go hear them is going to be tough and in the meanwhile i want to enjoy the research part of the journey. if half the forum says AG trio's are the best speaker ever unless you like EDM then i'll look elsewhere and save myself some time...no shortage of gear i know i will love

 

[Ron Resnick]

good question Ron, but i'll keep my comments brief as i don't want to derail this thread into a diesis vs. ag one. especially not when i am looking for some highly specific information on AG Trios.

i listened to the diesis caput mundi or ludo (not the big roma's) at Bob's probably 3 years ago at this point. it was deff pre covid and back when Bob had his lab set up in Flatiron. I like the form factor and thought they would work well in my nyc apartment. I don't remember the exact amp but it was a diesis integrated. i don't think Bob had the pilium burned in or turned on at the time and that was fine by me as I wasn't familiar with the brand, though i do love big power ss amps so that's probably part of why I didn't connect with the diesis.

at the time had magico s5mk2's in my home rig so maybe it was the difference in what was being presented vs what i am used to. on some choice hip hop cuts i felt the vocals sounded great but there wasn't enough oomf and drive on the low end. to me, they didnt sound as transparent and liquid as my magicos did and the "jump factor" wasn't there which lead me to believe that either it's not there on my recordings or a well made horn has the same jump as a well made cone and dome - both of which could be wrong conclusions. that day, the magico m2 and alsyvox both impressed me more. nothing against diesis and as a Rhapsody customer, I know Bob well enough to know that he would never choose to carry anything but the highest quality gear. I now only live in nyc part time and it's a big regret that i didn't get to go over to his new location to hear all the new toys but i hope to remedy that soon enough.

fwiw i value transparency, liquidity, big sound staging, and that attack when music feels like its ripping out of a speaker and grabbing you. i get all of that my m2 set up. however, i want more, not because there is a short coming on the m2's but because i will have a new space with more room to work with and a big speaker just plays BIG. sure and m6 with some big mono's could do the trick but i've always loved the look of AG and every description of the sound seems like something i'd enjoy but I just don't know if I'm barking up the wrong tree with my type of music. youtube can only tell you so much (little but i like to look at what a speaker looks like in a room and day dream ) and nobody is playing the type of music i regularly listen to on videos of AG Trios

i'd like to fly everywhere and listen to all the things but its just realistically not an option. at this price point buying blind isn't the worse thing. there are no truly horrible speakers just whether or not something is in line with your tastes. but to get the most enjoyment out of my journey, i like to short list a few a speakers and maybe travel to hear them. i can listen to a bunch of a stuff I know i will love at Bob's and it's not "out of the way" i'm just going back to nyc and I know i'll be happy with magicos or alsyvox. but for AG i have to go out of my way to the west coast of florida as that's the only place i know a dealer has them - maybe there is something closer that i am not aware of. i don't find myself in those parts very often so to schedule a trip just to go hear them is going to be tough and in the meanwhile i want to enjoy the research part of the journey. if half the forum says AG trio's are the best speaker ever unless you like EDM then i'll look elsewhere and save myself some time...no shortage of gear i know i will love

Thank you for that interesting background information!

 

[caesar]

Does anyone here have experience listening to more modern electronic, wavepool, hip hop, and 80's synth pop on horns? A good speaker is a good speaker and should be able to do all genres justice but I havent really read much first hand experience from AG owners listening to that kind of stuff so I am just curious. I love my magicos and it's an easy choice to go for the m6 or something and some big block ss amps (ideally class a) but I'd like to try something new. I love when music pops out (not shouty) at you and so that's where I started thinking about horns...

Hi Skanda,

I heard the new Avantgarde Trio G3 at Axpona. I can confidently say it rocks like nothing I have ever heard ever before - by a country mile. The second best I have heard for rock is MBL Extreme. (The extremes rock very hard also but do a better job of carving out the acoustic of the recording venue in your room - so there are trade offs, as with everything in life). Box speakers sound dead in comparison - no joke.

With a purchase of this magnitude in cost and, as a passionate audiophile, likely impact on your happiness, take a trip to Europe and audition at Avantgarde.

 

[Ron Resnick]

With a purchase of this magnitude in cost and, as a passionate audiophile, likely impact on your happiness, take a trip to Europe and audition at Avantgarde.

+1

 

[marslo]

@marslo apologies if you have already explained this in another thread, but how did you land on REL for your trios vs. ag's basshorns. Any drawbacks or benefits?

I ask because I am in the process of buying a second home which is a loft space and I will finally have the room to try big horns should I choose to go in that direction. However, the basshorns might just be a little too much from a design standpoint and I do worry that they might interfere with the center imaging. Your REL set up seems really cool and very manageable in my new space - and is deff a little more budget friendly too.

I havent heard any AG's and have very little experience with horns except for some Diesis that I heard at Bob's in NYC. Of course I would try to listen before buying but the nearest pair to me is likely a couple hours flight. Does anyone here have experience listening to more modern electronic, wavepool, hip hop, and 80's synth pop on horns? A good speaker is a good speaker and should be able to do all genres justice but I havent really read much first hand experience from AG owners listening to that kind of stuff so I am just curious. I love my magicos and it's an easy choice to go for the m6 or something and some big block ss amps (ideally class a) but I'd like to try something new. I love when music pops out (not shouty) at you and so that's where I started thinking about horns...

Hi Skanda,

I decided to try RELs for the same reasons ie footprint , design and price .

The integration was not an easy task though, moreover the burning in of Trios and amps upgrade introduced many variables.


After over one year I am nearly satisfied and I am of the opinion the the bass quality of RELs is better than from 231 AG subs.

My next idea is to try the second pair of RELs in line array to see if I will have more saturation in 60 - 120 Hz range which according to videos of REL should be the case. The lack of such a saturation can make a presentation of AGs shouty .

The drivers and amps in my Carbon Special seem to better the ones from 231 subs . The only thing which is missing on RELs is the built in DSP but on good recordings I managed to integrate well the bass and midrange. Some consider DSP as a suboptimal solution for bass quality , I am not the technician to go into details ,but you will find on YT RELs videos which are very useful.

The only advice which I did not follow was the placement of the subs . In my setup putting them in the corners as REL recommends introduced too much of distortion . I achieved the best results in reproduction of space , imaging and bass quality placing subs between the rack an the Trios trying to put in the same line the drivers of the big horn of Trios and RELs.

As already mentioned by Ked and Ron the horns are not all the same and for sure very different animal from your Magicos , but if you like close to life macro and micro dynamics AGs are one of the best choices imho. I did not listen to Diesis so I cannot comment on differences between AGs and Diesis horns. My Trio LE 26 excells in big and complex symphonic music and vocals , but as any good speaker they reproduce well almost any kind of music.

Then taking in consideration the introduction of new Trio G3 series - which I expect to listen to in Warsaw in October - and some positive opinions about them I would join the recommendation to go to Germany to AGs headquarter for the listening session before you decide to spend a lot of money , even if you have made it easy on gambling

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Skanda,

I decided to try RELs for the same reasons ie footprint , design and price .

The integration was not an easy task though, moreover the burning in of Trios and amps upgrade introduced many variables.


After over one year I am nearly satisfied and I am of the opinion the the bass quality of RELs is better than from 231 AG subs.

My next idea is to try the second pair of RELs in line array to see if I will have more saturation in 60 - 120 Hz range which according to videos of REL should be the case. The lack of such a saturation can make a presentation of AGs shouty .

The drivers and amps in my Carbon Special seem to better the ones from 231 subs . The only thing which is missing on RELs is the built in DSP but on good recordings I managed to integrate well the bass and midrange. Some consider DSP as a suboptimal solution for bass quality , I am not the technician to go into details ,but you will find on YT RELs videos which are very useful.

The only advice which I did not follow was the placement of the subs . In my setup putting them in the corners as REL recommends introduced too much of distortion . I achieved the best results in reproduction of space , imaging and bass quality placing subs between the rack an the Trios trying to put in the same line the drivers of the big horn of Trios and RELs.

As already mentioned by Ked and Ron the horns are not all the same and for sure very different animal from your Magicos , but if you like close to life macro and micro dynamics AGs are one of the best choice imho. I did not listen to Diesis so I cannot comment on differences between AGs and Diesis horns. My Trio LE 26 excells in big and complex symphonic music and vocals , but as any good speaker they reproduce well almost any kind of music.

Then taking in consideration the introduction of new Trio G3 series - which I expect to listen to in Warsaw in October - and some positive opinions about them I would join the recommendation to go to Germany to AGs headquarter for the listening session before you decide to spend a lot of money , even if you have made a lot on gambling

Diesis have more in common with Pure Audio Project really than AG in design terms.

 

[Skanda]

Hi Skanda,

I decided to try RELs for the same reasons ie footprint , design and price .

The integration was not an easy task though, moreover the burning in of Trios and amps upgrade introduced many variables.


After over one year I am nearly satisfied and I am of the opinion the the bass quality of RELs is better than from 231 AG subs.

My next idea is to try the second pair of RELs in line array to see if I will have more saturation in 60 - 120 Hz range which according to videos of REL should be the case. The lack of such a saturation can make a presentation of AGs shouty .

The drivers and amps in my Carbon Special seem to better the ones from 231 subs . The only thing which is missing on RELs is the built in DSP but on good recordings I managed to integrate well the bass and midrange. Some consider DSP as a suboptimal solution for bass quality , I am not the technician to go into details ,but you will find on YT RELs videos which are very useful.

The only advice which I did not follow was the placement of the subs . In my setup putting them in the corners as REL recommends introduced too much of distortion . I achieved the best results in reproduction of space , imaging and bass quality placing subs between the rack an the Trios trying to put in the same line the drivers of the big horn of Trios and RELs.

As already mentioned by Ked and Ron the horns are not all the same and for sure very different animal from your Magicos , but if you like close to life macro and micro dynamics AGs are one of the best choice imho. I did not listen to Diesis so I cannot comment on differences between AGs and Diesis horns. My Trio LE 26 excells in big and complex symphonic music and vocals , but as any good speaker they reproduce well almost any kind of music.

Then taking in consideration the introduction of new Trio G3 series - which I expect to listen to in Warsaw in October - and some positive opinions about them I would join the recommendation to go to Germany to AGs headquarter for the listening session before you decide to spend a lot of money , even if you have made a lot on gambling

Thank you for that very detailed response. It seems like REL could work for me but I'll have my work cut out for me. 2 single basshorns, one behind each speaker, could be a nice albeit much more expensive option for me

 

[Skanda]

Breaking news - new Trio G3 with iTron amplification . No more problem with external amps, fully active speakers with built-in amplifiers.

Watching this video and reading the very well written audiobeat review, it seems like iTron active is the way to go for this speaker. The current based amp design reminds me of what Bakoon was doing and in someways what Soulution was doing. Circling back to the tubes vs. solid state topic on this thread, I feel that a nice tube pre with the iTron amping system could work really well. For me and my tastes, the portion of the audiobeat review that really stuck out was the brief mention of using a CH L1 pre - a preamp I have always loved but never had the pleasure of owning. I personally would probably opt for a Soulution pre for that extra attack but that modularity and flexibility really is interesting.

 

[caesar]

Hi Skanda,

Marslo shares a lot of wisdom in his post, including the critical point: your tolerance for risk.

By the way, I really understand where you are coming from: You are a real music lover, like me. You want to listen to music that moves you, instead of audiophile crap … maybe there’s Patricia barber doing her audiophile version Eminem or Snoop Dogg, lol….I can certainly relate to what you are looking for. When I hang out with other audiophiles and I ask for blues, I get a second rate artist like Hans theesink , because it recorded well - instead of muddy waters and howlin wolf that I want to hear. I ask for Jimi Hendrix, and I get some audiophile version...

most audiophiles are in a different hobby than you and I are...

Anyways, Let me address the possible Avantgarde choice from the the perspective of the musical envelope. The thing with new Avantgarde TRIO powered by the Avantgarde SS amp module is that the attack is INCREDIBLY POWERFUL. I’ve read on this very site that some people feel “assaulted” by the sound and immediately walk out of the room ...

Now I am guessing that many of these guys are alter cockers, who haven’t left their basement since the 70s. These guys have gotten acclimated to a muted attack over the years, by running underpowered amps like audio research on hard to drive speakers like wilson, and then slap on soft sounding dsd drek DACs to further deaden the sound …

Avantgarde is the opposite… if you audition, you should tell within a minute if you love that attack … you get WALLOPED!!! I loved that, and as Marslo mentions, it gets that attack part of real music, along with the microdynamics, better than anything I have ever heard…

but depending on the room - speaker interactions in the real living space, I wonder if this is something I could love listening for hours, days on end…of course the solution is to get the Trio system in one room and the extreme system in another , but I’m dreaming ..Maybe 1 day….

Anyways, as far as sustain and decay go, I had a real hard time judging these in a crappy hotel room, under show conditions . Also, don't remember about the system doing any of the other audiophile vocabulary, as the other system strengths were so dominant... I’m assuming Avantgarde has a decent room that you will be able to figure this out and it suits your preference

Alternatively, you can lower your risk of buying blind by flying in Jimi Smith to set it up for you

Please keep us posted!

 

[ICUToo]

alter cockers

I am unfamiliar with this term, caesar?