Audio Research service issue

[Vinylbob]

My VT-100 Mark 3 amp had a tube arc on a 6550C, and took out a small portion of the board in addition to the two resistors that blow when a tube arcs. I shipped it to ARC by Fedex Ground, got there June 13. I enclosed the paperwork from their website, making sure to check the box that I wanted to be called after they worked up an estimate. July 1 I called to see where it was in the service queue, and got a call back on July 3 that the amp was done and ready to ship, and that the bill was $807. I had never gotten a call to review the potential charges, and this charge was much more than previous services for the same issue in the previous two years ($133 in 2012 for a tube arc, $487 in 2011 for a tube arc and to replace all the sockets). I asked for a copy of the bill, which took a week to get by email, and after many phone calls, managed to speak to Kalvin Dahl, who knocked off $100. He explained that labor rates were up to $120 instead of $90, but could not, to me, justify a 4.5 hour labor charge and the replacement of two power tubes, not one, and the driver tube (replaced as "a precaution"). The other power tube that was replaced had tested fine before the amp shipped to them. It was a case of going overboard in replacing parts, and without prior approval. The 6H30 driver tube that they replaced was an NOS 6H30-DR, for which they used a standard 6H30. No way to get my NOS tube back now. The work, it turned out, had been done on June 28, but somehow got lost in the shuffle. The amp is due back this Monday the 22nd, six weeks after I shipped it to them. Service there used to be prompt and reasonable. Has anyone else had a bad experience with them lately?

Had I gotten the call with an estimate, I would have had them ship it back without doing the work, and soldered in the resistors myself. I don't feel that I can trust them with service anymore, with the lack of response and bad handling of this small project.

Bob

 

[mep]

Bob-Let me ask you a question: If you felt confident performing the work yourself, why did you ship the amp back to ARC in the first place? The hassle of removing the 500 screws that hold the top on the VT-100 MKIII and soldering in the new resistors and replacing the bad tube(s) is outweighed by the hassle and expense of boxing the amp up, sending it back to ARC, waiting for the repair, paying for the repair, waiting for the amp to come back, and unboxing the amp and hooking it back up in your system.

And having said all of that, I'm a little surprised that ARC didn't send you an email with their estimate of repair before they repaired the amp. Lot's of companies do provide an estimate before the repair so no one is surprised. And second of all, I don't like the fact that ARC uses resistors as fuses for when a tube blows. I'm sure they will tell you that resistors sound better than fuses, but one could make a counter argument that ARC just wants to have service work. As for why you blew a trace on your board, I don't know the answer to that and it's not cool. I doubt ARC replaced the board which means ARC just soldered a wire across the blown trace which will have to be disclosed when you sell the amp which will lower its value.

 

[Bruce B]

Great first post!

Now introduce yourself....

 

[Vinylbob]

MEP,

Thanks for the reply. I leave the top off all the time, to release heat and for easier access for biasing. Yes, a lot of screws, especially since you have to pull a side panel off to solder resistors in. I leave the top off my phono preamp too, for easy access. The one time I did my own soldering it looked pretty poor compared to the ARC work. And in the past I had needed other work done, like replacing all the tube sockets, so it was worthwhile. Those horizontal sockets would get loose and lead to tube problems. This time a small section of the flat metal on the circuit board was gone, and I was not sure how to fix it. I think they just soldered in a jumper, or trace as you call it.

ARC was supposed to send me an estimate but did not. So I was pretty upset when they came back with a high bill.

I was surprised to have a tube a failure because I had gone back to ARC Winged C's about a month before, having issues with the GE 6550A's that I had been using for about 6 years. The last sets I got were failing easily, and there is no more good stock of them around, so I put in the ARC set that I had, which had very little wear.

 

[Vinylbob]

Hi Bruce! I just found out about this forum, many good posts to read. Started with a Mark 1, then 2 and 3. I'm not in the industry, just a hobby/obsession. Love music.

 

[mep]

MEP, The one time I did my own soldering it looked pretty poor compared to the ARC work.

OK Bob, I now understand why you sent the amp back.

And in the past I had needed other work done, like replacing all the tube sockets, so it was worthwhile. Those horizontal sockets would get loose and lead to tube problems.

Bob-Are we talking about the same VT-100 MKIII amp here? This amp isn't old enough that you should have had loose tube sockets unless someone manhandled the tubes when they were pulling them out of the sockets and didn't put one hand on the circuit board to hold it steady while the tubes were hopefully being gently removed from their sockets.

ARC was supposed to send me an estimate but did not. So I was pretty upset when they came back with a high bill.

I understand that as I said before. People don't like signing a blank check so to speak.

I was surprised to have a tube a failure because I had gone back to ARC Winged C's about a month before, having issues with the GE 6550A's that I had been using for about 6 years.

Uh Bob, if you had been using a set of GE 6550s for about 6 years and assuming you listened to your amp fairly regularly during the week/month, I'm surprised that you didn't have more serious failures with your output tubes. You normally never get more than 2 years of steady use out of 6550s before they start heading south for a permanent vacation. In ARC amps, that vacation destination is known as Volcano Island because the tubes like to blow hard and cause damage to the surrounding "country side."

 

[Vinylbob]

Bob-Are we talking about the same VT-100 MKIII amp here? This amp isn't old enough that you should have had loose tube sockets unless someone manhandled the tubes when they were pulling them out of the sockets and didn't put one hand on the circuit board to hold it steady while the tubes were hopefully being gently removed from their sockets.

Uh Bob, if you had been using a set of GE 6550s for about 6 years and assuming you listened to your amp fairly regularly during the week/month, I'm surprised that you didn't have more serious failures with your output tubes. You normally never get more than 2 years of steady use out of 6550s before they start heading south for a permanent vacation. In ARC amps, that vacation destination is known as Volcano Island because the tubes like to blow hard and cause damage to the surrounding "country side."

The amp was a Mark 2, upgraded to Mark 3 in 2001 with new boards, etc. The tubes, by 2011, were all loose, so that I would bend the pins and clean them to try to get better contact. They would have a slight sag and sit at a slight angle. When I sent it to ARC in 2011 for a tube arc, they suggested that the tube sockets might have been the cause, and installed the newer version tube sockets, which are tight.

It is on about 1000 hours per year. It was 3 sets of the GE tubes over 6 years, 1986 vintage, then 2 sets in the next year, 1990's vintage. The GE tubes sounded much better than the standard 6550C's, but you can't get good stock anymore. The 1990's tubes became unstable after a shorter time, with quickly declining readings.
The 1986 tubes wore quite well.

Yes, it can take out the "surrounding countryside" as well. Last year when I had a tube arc I had a slight fire in the components at the front left of the amp. Sometimes I think I should have invested in solid state, having paid almost twice the price of the amp in tubes.

 

[mep]

The amp was a Mark 2, upgraded to Mark 3 in 2001 with new boards, etc. The tubes, by 2011, were all loose, so that I would bend the pins and clean them to try to get better contact.

Did you really bend the pins on the 6550 tubes?

They would have a slight sag and sit at a slight angle. When I sent it to ARC in 2011 for a tube arc, they suggested that the tube sockets might have been the cause, and installed the newer version tube sockets, which are tight.

The proper way to have tubes sit tight in the sockets if the tube sockets become loose somehow is to "retension" the tube sockets and not bend the pins on the actual output tube. If you really did that, it's a miracle you didn't ruin the tube by causing stress fractures in the vacuum envelope and having the tube go to air.

It is on about 1000 hours per year.

That is average usage which fits with the usual recommendation of replacing 6550 output tubes approximately every two years or 2000 hours.

Yes, it can take out the "surrounding countryside" as well. Last year when I had a tube arc I had a slight fire in the components at the front left of the amp. Sometimes I think I should have invested in solid state, having paid almost twice the price of the amp in tubes.

Yikes! You are lucky you didn't burn your house down. Your amp won't be worth much more than shipping costs if you disclose all of these issues before selling. The only way out of this mess is if you have ARC install new boards for those that were damaged assuming the inside of your amp case doesn't look like the inside of a chimney. If the inside of your amp isn't burnt and doesn't stink and you had all of the affected boards replaced, then you could sell it and say all boards recently replaced by ARC in order to ensure the amp is working perfectly. That would probably be cost prohibitive which leads me back to my original statement that your amp is no longer worth much money on the used market.

 

[Vinylbob]

Did you really bend the pins on the 6550 tubes?



The proper way to have tubes sit tight in the sockets if the tube sockets become loose somehow is to "retension" the tube sockets and not bend the pins on the actual output tube. If you really did that, it's a miracle you didn't ruin the tube by causing stress fractures in the vacuum envelope and having the tube go to air.

Yikes! You are lucky you didn't burn your house down.

I did try to bend the conductors in the tube sockets, but also did gently bend the tube prongs, on 6550's and on 7308's in my phono preamp. And no damage seemed to have been done. Yes, tubes sometimes make me nervous that I will have a fire, between the heat generated and the probability of tube arcing. ARC fixed the minor damage from the little fire and all looks new. If I buy new or used to replace this amp, I will probably still keep it as a backup.

 

[Grooves]

Well, your not the only one. I purchased a new PH7 in 2007 and 2 wks later it developed a loud open ground type hum. It ended up related to a solder joint probably and near enough to the 3-6H30's that whenever you'd pull one to replace it in order to figure out the hum, pushing another tube into the socket would exert enough force to get rid of the hum. The hum may stay away a day, a week, a month or more. I decided to send the unit in to ARC and have it repaired and upgraded to the newer version. So, I get the call and am told I had a bad tube. Really, I said, then why is it replacing the tube or applying pressure to the area around the tubes removes the hum. As it turned out they never bench tested the unit, simply sent it to the upgrade bench and thought it was a non-issue. So, when I get it back guess what? HUMMMM. When I called to complain that's when I found out it never really was serviced for the initial problem. So, I have an intermittent problem that will be hard to sort out. My last hum showed up over 6 months ago so I don't want to send it in, and risk destruction by FedEX or UPS, until the hum returns. I share your pain. My only consolation is they sent me out two 6H30's to try at no charge. I'm still p.o.'d and my warranty has expired. While I should have returned it I just figured the problem would reappear more often as time elapsed and then they would find the problem easier. Guessed wrong on that one. What really gets me is that they don't have an email method of contatct. At least then I could have a record of all the contacts.

 

[microstrip]

Well, your not the only one. I purchased a new PH7 in 2007 and 2 wks later it developed a loud open ground type hum. It ended up related to a solder joint probably and near enough to the 3-6H30's that whenever you'd pull one to replace it in order to figure out the hum, pushing another tube into the socket would exert enough force to get rid of the hum. The hum may stay away a day, a week, a month or more. I decided to send the unit in to ARC and have it repaired and upgraded to the newer version. So, I get the call and am told I had a bad tube. Really, I said, then why is it replacing the tube or applying pressure to the area around the tubes removes the hum. As it turned out they never bench tested the unit, simply sent it to the upgrade bench and thought it was a non-issue. So, when I get it back guess what? HUMMMM. When I called to complain that's when I found out it never really was serviced for the initial problem. So, I have an intermittent problem that will be hard to sort out. My last hum showed up over 6 months ago so I don't want to send it in, and risk destruction by FedEX or UPS, until the hum returns. I share your pain. My only consolation is they sent me out two 6H30's to try at no charge. I'm still p.o.'d and my warranty has expired. While I should have returned it I just figured the problem would reappear more often as time elapsed and then they would find the problem easier. Guessed wrong on that one. What really gets me is that they don't have an email method of contatct. At least then I could have a record of all the contacts.

Intermittent faults are really difficult to trace. Long ago I owned an excellent Electrocompaniet The preamplfier, that used tens of small signal transistors with high bias and one of the channels developed an intermittent noise. Unfortunately, any action to trace it would immediately stop the noise. Nothing could start it systematically - cooling sprays, selectively heating the semiconductors, replacing just the more probable ones, analysis breaking the feedback loop - nothing could bring us to the faulty transistor. The advice from a factory technician was simple - replace them all. And they send us a bag filled with transistors - problem immediately solved! Your preamplifier probably has what they call a cold joint or a broken solder - you can see the pictures of it at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldering

 

[Grooves]

Yeah, I know what you mean. That's why my PH7 sits at home awaiting another noisy debut. I tried looking for the bad solder joint but had no luck. Maybe I should really look in ernest next time I have nothing to do and "feel lucky"! I have since purchased some better loupe lenses. Time to go fishing?

 

[mep]

Yeah, I know what you mean. That's why my PH7 sits at home awaiting another noisy debut. I tried looking for the bad solder joint but had no luck. Maybe I should really look in ernest next time I have nothing to do and "feel lucky"! I have since purchased some better loupe lenses. Time to go fishing?

Better yet, see if you can find a good tech that has current J-Std solder qualifications and currently earns his living as a tech and let him take a look at it. There should be some in your area if you live anywhere around a military base.

 

[microstrip]

Yeah, I know what you mean. That's why my PH7 sits at home awaiting another noisy debut. I tried looking for the bad solder joint but had no luck. Maybe I should really look in ernest next time I have nothing to do and "feel lucky"! I have since purchased some better loupe lenses. Time to go fishing?

Try heating the PCB and cooling with an hairdrier while operating - may be it can trigger it. If the hum appears in both channels perhaps it is due to the power supply section - I would look in the soldering of the electrolytic capacitors and the respective series small coils.

 

[Grooves]

I have a good idea in the area it may be since this is the area when pressed on the noise disappears. I biding my time till it fails again and then maybe I can get motivated to figure it out. Thanks for the ideas.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I just happened to come across this page, and read your service issues with ARC.

I have had several issues with their products, and this is the main reason why I stuck to c-j.

Although I was not living in the USA or Australia at the time, I had to ship my ARC unit half way across the globe to get it serviced in Singapore. Then I had an excellent tech in my home country, Sri Lanka, who did meticulous work on my older Manley (VTL) monoblocks, plus managed to fix some old Maggies MG3.5/R's. He was also capable of fixing and replacing the ribbon elements on my older Infinity Rennaisance 90 speakers. The ARC units that gave me problems were a power amp (old VT series 200 watt something), line stage preamp, few years ago a reference CD player that shat itself after a couple of months. The repairs cost were ridiculous I just got the local tech to attend to it and got rid of the whole lot.

Then again my old man (pop) still has his old ARC class A 100 watt monoblocks (SE version made in very limited numbers, hence no longer made) that has had no problem and still works fine with the Apogee Diva's (that have had numerous repairs).

Anyway, I think ARC could have done a far better job here with regards to service and related costs. I would certainly be discouraged from buying their products again.
I have being using c-j since 1993. Out-standing service and great company to know.
Take it easy and have a good one. Hope your enjoying your music once again.

Have those issues being sorted out now with your amps?

Cheers, RJ