Aqua Formula - settings new levels of R2R sonics and price performance

[flyer]

Hi Flyer,
Would you tell us more about the 432EVO server?
If it's close to SGMS in performance, many of us will have interest.
Thanks!

They were effectively very similar. I know the competitors are moving forward as well, but the EVO-prototype was actually a first version as well so in its final version it will certainly be noticeably ahead the version that was used to do the comparison.

You will find the website of the maker here: http://432evo.be/index.php/editions/432-evo-aeon

This link brings you to the current commercialized top model (4.200 EUR, excluding VAT) but the prototype I am talking about is a good deal above in performance and will feature a separate chassis for the power supplies, fed by one power cable though.

The listed products are commercialized successfully in Belgium and the Netherlands for now but his market will expand as he is getting more distributors on board.

Also, as the designer programs himself all the algorythms for conversion, upsampling, resampling etc. He actually started with the pitch resampling from 440 to 432 Hz (hence the company name) but that has meanwhile become only one of the many features that can be switched on or off. I for example don't use it, but many customers of the brand are using it, it largely depends on music choice and, of course, personal taste.

So, if anyone interested to test/carry this brand, pm me.

It is a bit premature that I am talking about this in this thread but in due time (around Munich time) I will be opening a separate thread for this as it will be the official launch.

Regards,
Michel

 

[spiritofmusic]

So Flyer, you contend that this device is competitive with a device optimised at 512 dsd and esp HQP?
I mean, if it is, w'out handling 512 and HQP, at a third of the price, that is impressive

 

[CKKeung]

They were effectively very similar. I know the competitors are moving forward as well, but the EVO-prototype was actually a first version as well so in its final version it will certainly be noticeably ahead the version that was used to do the comparison.
You will find the website of the maker here: http://432evo.be/index.php/editions/432-evo-aeon
This link brings you to the current commercialized top model (4.200 EUR, excluding VAT) but the prototype I am talking about is a good deal above in performance and will feature a separate chassis for the power supplies, fed by one power cable though.
The listed products are commercialized successfully in Belgium and the Netherlands for now but his market will expand as he is getting more distributors on board.
Also, as the designer programs himself all the algorythms for conversion, upsampling, resampling etc. He actually started with the pitch resampling from 440 to 432 Hz (hence the company name) but that has meanwhile become only one of the many features that can be switched on or off. I for example don't use it, but many customers of the brand are using it, it largely depends on music choice and, of course, personal taste.
So, if anyone interested to test/carry this brand, pm me.
It is a bit premature that I am talking about this in this thread but in due time (around Munich time) I will be opening a separate thread for this as it will be the official launch.
Regards,
Michel

Thanks Michel for the detailed info!

Does this new top model have a name yet?

I guess 432EVO will be at the Munich Show in May?

 

[flyer]

So Flyer, you contend that this device is competitive with a device optimised at 512 dsd and esp HQP?

I don't know which resolution was used on the other player but yes, they sounded like twin brothers as the configuration was at the time. The guy that came by to demo, tsaett on this forum, was the 'master' of the other player. Comparison was carried out early January 2017.
My DAC does not accept pure DSD so I guess it didn't output a DSD-stream.

The designer of the EVO, a genius if you ask me, is writing the software and developed deblur and sampling algorythms on a Linux platform, showing presumably a good simularity to HQP but with far lesser controls and fully embedded in the player. In other words, HQP is most probably very good, but that does not exclude others to be very good as well... and of course the streamer part is also very important in the equation.

PS:I mentioned part of the above in an earlier thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ERVER-SGM-2015&p=435820&viewfull=1#post435820

 

[flyer]

Thanks Michel for the detailed info!

Does this new top model have a name yet?

I guess 432EVO will be at the Munich Show in May?

No, no name yet, sorry.

Yes, it will be shown in Munich in the Aries Cerat demo room P13 in hall 3.

Regards,
Michel

 

[spiritofmusic]

Fascinating Michel
€5k v €16k for 432EVO v SGM 2016 is certainly choice in the marketplace
This is my situation
Despite being an inveterate addict of Old School disc spinning and format collecting ie lps and cds, continued exposure to the SGM at Blue58's has more than convinced me of the validity of this approach
Both in the intrinsic goodness of HQP (even more so than the upscaling to 512 or going native), analog-like vanishingly low noise flr of SGM (it's truly amazing how I "don't hear" the SGM playing) and maybe more critically the uber user-friendliness of doing computer audio this way ie SGM/Roon
I take the prize as least computer adept person on the planet, and highest loathe ranking for all things computer-intrinsic modern world necessity
For these reasons alone the SGM is made for me, and is "worth" the extra outlay
For EVO to get my cash, it will have to at the very least match sq benefits of HQP, be at least as easy and as intuitive to use as SGM/Roon, and provide that analog-like ease and fluidity of SGM that comes from the combination of startlingly low noise flr and HQP processing
And be available in UK to demo
I'm afraid it's going to take a lot more than a dealer saying a newbie server not offering HQP is on a par w SGM, to convince me and many others who've experienced SGM and are 200% sold on it

 

[flyer]

Fascinating Michel
€5k v €16k for 432EVO v SGM 2016 is certainly choice in the marketplace
This is my situation
Despite being an inveterate addict of Old School disc spinning and format collecting ie lps and cds, continued exposure to the SGM at Blue58's has more than convinced me of the validity of this approach
Both in the intrinsic goodness of HQP (even more so than the upscaling to 512 or going native), and maybe more critically the uber user-friendliness of doing computer audio this way ie SGM/Roon
I take the prize as least computer adept person on the planet, and highest loathe ranking for all things computer-intrinsic modern world necessity
For these reasons alone the SGM is made for me, and is "worth" the extra outlay
For EVO to get my cash, it will have to at the very least match sq benefits of HQP, be at least as easy and as intuitive to use as SGM/Roon, and provide that analog-like ease and fluidity of SGM that comes from the combination of startlingly low noise flr and HQP processing
And be available in UK to demo

Allow me to respond in reverse order.

The owner will be in contact with potential dealers, so having a demo in the UK should be getting an answer.
EVO is equally Roon-ready and certified. Check the Roon core servers list on https://roonlabs.com/partners.html
If it matches the HQP? Only one way to find out, that is testing it... all I can said is that the test was done early January here by a representative of SGM and myself and we both agreed on the equality.
Beware, I do not say this 'yet-to-be-named' prototype of EVO will cost 5k€, the current top model carries this list price. As the new model will have an extra chassis, power supplies and improved upsampling code (with even further iterations since carrying out the test I refer to above). So it will cost still a four-number figure but don't know yet if that will be closer to 9999 or 5000...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Michel
And the point of most interest to me personally?
Ie its appeal to TOTAL computer dummies like me, who have a palpable feeling of anxiety and unfamiliarity approaching the whole unfriendly world of computer audio
Barry's SGM that I've experienced dozens of times now, really comes close to convincing me I could "live with" computer audio and embrace it
We recently went to a demo with a much less user friendly computer audio system, and the owner spent 90% of the time dealing w "error" readings on his laptop trying manfully to play anything we brought along

 

[flyer]

Well, I am probably as much of a computer dummy as you then... since I (like to) stay away from the technicalities.

You can make a choice between a number of web controllers, both android and apple devices. EVO can equally make remote updates and control, if an error were to occur, the unit thus helping out with technical errors, if that were to occur.

The User Interface that I am using is Logitech Media Server, easy for me as I only use the Genre - Album - Track hierarchy (though other selection keys are available but I don't use them).

PS: being aware that this conversation got going in a thread dedicated to something very different, I will (self-)refrain from posting further in this thread. Awaiting a separate thread to open up (when the final version will be made available), I would suggest to pm me if you have any further questions.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sure Michel
And the point of most interest to me personally?
Ie its appeal to TOTAL computer dummies like me, who have a palpable feeling of anxiety and unfamiliarity approaching the whole unfriendly world of computer audio
Barry's SGM that I've experienced dozens of times now, really comes close to convincing me I could "live with" computer audio and embrace it
We recently went to a demo with a much less user friendly computer audio system, and the owner spent 90% of the time dealing w "error" readings on his laptop trying manfully to play anything we brought along

along this train of thought, i'll mention I've had the SGM in room now since October, almost 6 months, and it's been absolutely dead solid perfect in terms of usability. prior I needed my son to assist me from time to time with my CAPSv4. and if there is any clean up or tweaking to do, SGM folks can get into it and do it remotely. no drama at all. and the collective SGM<->HQP <->Roon <-> Windows base products continue to evolve positively with a number of users there are tweaks always coming down the road. so it's solid but flexible enough to move forward.

and if you've seen one up close, or lifted one, you can see what sort of substantial sort of kit it is. observe the attention to heat dissipation and all the linear power supplies for a long trouble free life.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I've been "up close and personal" with the SGM for the last 9 months, having listened to ("thru") it in detail over a dozen times
It exudes total confidence, and I remain in awe of the almost-zero noise flr it brings to proceedings
I believe it's this unique attribute together w HQP fluidity and super simple userfriendliness that likely will get me to sign the cheque

 

[Legolas]

My worry with a big investment music server solution, is the unit totally future proof? Can the hardware and software be updated / replaced. Are there regular updates to keep pace with the fast changing digital environment? Or will the company be here in 3 years time?

Chips get changed, architecture altered. You could end up with a slow box that may not be compliant with future platforms and music streaming services, whatever they may be in 3 years time.

There are many options sub 5K, some pre-built, others a kit to install yours and based on Linux or Windows. I have worked in graphics for 30 years, and have seen so many computer based solutions get thrown out and replaced as things progress. And obsolescence is much more rapid in recent years. I would NOT be confident a price tag North of 5K is a good way to go TBH.

Sorry, I don't want to sound negative, and I do appreciate how good these severs may sound, I am simply saying the price bracket is beyond my comfort zone for computer tech.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My worry with a big investment music server solution, is the unit totally future proof? Can the hardware and software be updated / replaced. Are there regular updates to keep pace with the fast changing digital environment? Or will the company be here in 3 years time?

Chips get changed, architecture altered. You could end up with a slow box that may not be compliant with future platforms and music streaming services, whatever they may be in 3 years time.

There are many options sub 5K, some pre-built, others a kit to install yours and based on Linux or Windows. I have worked in graphics for 30 years, and have seen so many computer based solutions get thrown out and replaced as things progress. And obsolescence is much more rapid in recent years. I would NOT be confident a price tag North of 5K is a good way to go TBH.

Sorry, I don't want to sound negative, and I do appreciate how good these severs may sound, I am simply saying the price bracket is beyond my comfort zone for computer tech.

it's a matter of CPU processing power, and OS upgradability. the SGM has lots of processing headroom, and Windows has a healthy future with video gaming pushing it's envelope. Linux has a less amount of robust economic inertia. and there is not anything driving digital format improvement......it's more tweaking what is on the table now.

but any digital dac, many of which are much more spendy than any server, is much more likely to reach obsolescence sooner. but I'm 65 years old and I want great digital right now. so I make my choices.

 

[flyer]

it's a matter of CPU processing power, and OS upgradability. the SGM has lots of processing headroom, and Windows has a healthy future with video gaming pushing it's envelope. Linux has a less amount of robust economic inertia. and there is not anything driving digital format improvement......it's more tweaking what is on the table now.

but any digital dac, many of which are much more spendy than any server, is much more likely to reach obsolescence sooner. but I'm 65 years old and I want great digital right now. so I make my choices.

Are you certain the SGM is the only one to have the CPU processing power and OS upgradability (as it is Windows based, lets not talk compatibility...) ? The expression on Linux's robustness (or lack thereof) is succinct but it is clear you made your choice.

And nobody, I think, is trying to make you renounce the choices you made. But others haven't yet and, per my disclaimer, I want to inform on possible alternatives... and I fully concur on what you wrote regarding obsolescence albeit that I would inverse the words DAC and server, both regarding to cost as regarding to obsolescence. But this is a personal appreciation, though looking at the list price difference between your Formula and your SGM it is actually applicable, except if the latter was purchased at a serious discount, but that is none of my (or anyone's) affairs.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Blue58's SGM has had a number of remote updates since he took ownership of it, I can't see the market going to 1024 dsd, let alone the computational power ever being possible w'out serious heat issues (SGM manfully deals well w this and it's copper heat sinks), MQA wks thru it, so I'm skeptical it's going to be outgunned and propping up a door anytime soon
Fwiw, people are changing their dacs more frequently than their underwear , and many of these dacs are in the ballpark or beyond of SGM price, so why hesitate w SGM when there's no hesitation w dacs?
I mean, Mike has gone from PD, to Trinity, to GG, and now to Formula
I suspect he'll keep the SGM as he goes thru another dac or three in the next few yrs
Fwiw, my experience w SGM in the field, excellent feedback on customer service from Ed and the Monaco team, and updates done seamlessly and quality assured, is enough for me to consider them v seriously
My only reservations are my personal hesitation on streaming as a concept per se, and severe lack of funds (my room construction having seen to that)
But not built in obsolescence
If this is a major consideration, than all the guys buying dac after dac really should stop at $1-5k
But they don't

 

[wisnon]

All Servers are technically upgradable and you can swap OS at will as well.

The KEY USPs for the SGM is the very heavy duty fanless heatsink, tailor-made Power supplies the bespoke clocks and the tweaked minimalist Windows OS.

The Motherboard can be swapped out in a few years when the Intel "i9" chipset is out, Windows OS only needs updating to match HQP version compatibility and the rest should be relevant for at least 5+ years.

It reminds me of the hand built Lampizator Dac, the Chassis and PSUs live on, but the digital section and the circuit as defined by the PCBs can be upgraded for minimal cost.

In summary, the SGM and similar offerings Like the Lampi Server or the Small green computer can be gutted and upgraded to reflect the latest chipsets and you can install whatever OS floats your boat. SGM uses a specially tuned Win10 and there is some effort that to keep it optimized.

With Lampi or SGC, one can use A-Optimizer in Win10 or 2012 and run Roon/HQP as well, but it may be more user maintenenace work and less seemless than with the SGM which is ONE configuration only.

 

[Al M.]

Are you certain the SGM is the only one to have the CPU processing power and OS upgradability (as it is Windows based, lets not talk compatibility...) ? The expression on Linux's robustness (or lack thereof) is succinct but it is clear you made your choice.

And nobody, I think, is trying to make you renounce the choices you made. But others haven't yet and, per my disclaimer, I want to inform on possible alternatives... and I fully concur on what you wrote regarding obsolescence albeit that I would inverse the words DAC and server, both regarding to cost as regarding to obsolescence. But this is a personal appreciation, though looking at the list price difference between your Formula and your SGM it is actually applicable, except if the latter was purchased at a serious discount, but that is none of my (or anyone's) affairs.

I'd probably buy a Baetis server if I'd ever go computer audio (no plans):

https://www.baetisaudio.com/index_Baetis.php

As for Linux vs. Windows OS, see their reply:

https://www.baetisaudio.com/faqs_and_white_papers.php#i

 

[wisnon]

Al

Baetis is very good, but SGM is in another league. BoM is way more and the "anal retentiveness" is far higher. True its diminishing returns, but that is the nature of the game. The Ref 2 is just shy of $15K so close to SGM $18K. SGM gives you Room lifetime plus HQP, while Baetis is JRiver. Near $700 vs $150. The PSU of the SGM is custom designed from scratch in Holland for that unit. It is mapped out and optimized by computer software. The clocks are form St Petersburg and also bespoke.

They say they use Skylake, but is it the 6700K?
Because, Roon+ HQP up sampling is a BEAR...total resource hog and HQP is a much better upsampler than JRiver.

If I had the dosh, no question of the 2 which I would choose given VERY similar pricing. For half the price, I would get the Lampi SuoperKomputer with the tubed SPDIF (digilampizator) output. Same skylake, but the OS won't be tweaked like these 2, but my good buddy online already gave me win10 optimization scripts that do most of the work and commercially, Audiophile Optimizer can do a lot for $125 on Win10.

 

[Al M.]

Al

Baetis is very good, but SGM is in another league. BoM is way more and the "anal retentiveness" is far higher.

What is BoM and "anal retentiveness" ?

 

[hifial]

Are you certain the SGM is the only one to have the CPU processing power and OS upgradability (as it is Windows based, lets not talk compatibility...) ? The expression on Linux's robustness (or lack thereof) is succinct but it is clear you made your choice.

And nobody, I think, is trying to make you renounce the choices you made. But others haven't yet and, per my disclaimer, I want to inform on possible alternatives... and I fully concur on what you wrote regarding obsolescence albeit that I would inverse the words DAC and server, both regarding to cost as regarding to obsolescence. But this is a personal appreciation, though looking at the list price difference between your Formula and your SGM it is actually applicable, except if the latter was purchased at a serious discount, but that is none of my (or anyone's) affairs.

Well in the USA the list on the Formula is $14,000 and the list on the SGM is $16,000 so given the price points of both I do not see your so called point.
Especially as the SGM is totally up-gradable, both hardware and software for many years to come by design.

I personal have no interest in anything that uses the Linux OS. Ones that do force you to live in either a closed system are severely limit your choices. Then there is the compatibility issue that some have with the drivers of some DAC's.

Yes, at one time in the past Linux was a good option. But IMHO W10 optimized properly is the better choice.