AlsyVox Caravaggio plus subwoofers @ Taiko Audio

Taiko Audio

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It does seem like a very interesting design. But I am a bit skeptical that any planar subwoofer can achieve the percussive (and concussive) impact of cones.

This is completely subjective but I do have the impression you need a bit more planar then cone surface area for the same “impact”. I do have more of that with the Caravaggios then I ever had with modern cone speakers right now, however in my first decade as an audiophile I have owned a few front horn loaded professional 15” to 18” JBL woofers which still reside in my memory of being the most percussive and concussive I ever experienced in a home environment. But this is 30 years ago.

I have just ordered my first set of vintage JBL speakers, beautifully restored by Kenrick Sound in Japan ( jbl43.com ). Just a 2 way, JBL D-130 15” + 075 compression driver. But sporting a claimed 105dB efficiency.

Depending on how this turns out I may try to find something like this:
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2021/...ml?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&m=1

Or this:
https://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=f339947279
 

Taiko Audio

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As some of you may know, I sold my Botticelli last year to upgrade to the Caravaggio last year. Daniele has told me my Caravaggio is essentially done with final tuning to be completed, if he hasn’t already. He has sent me several photos of the speakers, one including internal photo of the speaker itself. To my knowledge, no one has published such photo. With his permission, I’ve been allowed to post them. Stay tuned.

Congratulations, quite an upgrade!
 
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matthias

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I have just ordered my first set of vintage JBL speakers, beautifully restored by Kenrick Sound in Japan ( jbl43.com ). Just a 2 way, JBL D-130 15” + 075 compression driver. But sporting a claimed 105dB efficiency.

Emile,
you will love them :cool:
I have very similar 2-way JBL cinema speakers (with only 99dB efficiency)
No desire to go for other speakers :)

Matt
 
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LL21

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It does seem like a very interesting design. But I am a bit skeptical that any planar subwoofer can achieve the percussive (and concussive) impact of cones.
I did the overly simplistic math on cubic volume and a single Funk Audio 18.2 is 3x that of the largest Pure Low. Of course it is not all about volume, it is also about quality. Particularly when considering a planar whose speed should be tremendous. If BOTH are loafing at the relevant volume levels...which will be better? I suppose if you push both to their limits, then the cones probably win...but again, if you are never going to push EITHER anywhere near their limit, the decision may be different.

My primary concern is of reliability, etc and the company behind Pure Low...I cannot find out more so far. I have contacted and certainly very responsive and enthusiastic. A good start.
 

marty

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For historical purposes, lest we not forget, the idea of planar drivers that can function effectively as subwoofers is not new, although the Alsyvox Caravaggio is the latest (and apparently excellent) reincarnation of this idea. But in high end circles, it was Harry Pearson who proposed a novel but compelling custom solution for a SOA system using Magnepan panels as subwoofers in his famous Infinity "QRS-ID" hybrid system in the late 70's. Here is part of the review of this system from Issue 13 of TAS in 1978:

"Those who have read the reviews of the Tympani I-D (see Issue 11; also Editor’s Choice, Issue 12) and the Infinity QRS (Issue 12) may recall that this reviewer was less than delirious over the Tympani’s inability to resolve mid and high frequencies without serious veiling, especially at low levels. The QRS, on the other hand, was faulted (but not enough, I now conclude) for the low frequency colorations introduced by the bass box. Since both speakers—save for the QRS’s woofer section—are dipolar radiators of essentially ribbon-driven systems, it seemed logical to mate the strongest points of each; that is, the woofer system of the Tympani with the mid and high frequency panels of the QRS. And so we did.

The result is what we have decided to call the QRS-1D, a system of genuine musical authority and accuracy, possibly the “best” now extant."
 
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Mike Lavigne

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I did the overly simplistic math on cubic volume and a single Funk Audio 18.2 is 3x that of the largest Pure Low. Of course it is not all about volume, it is also about quality. Particularly when considering a planar whose speed should be tremendous. If BOTH are loafing at the relevant volume levels...which will be better? I suppose if you push both to their limits, then the cones probably win...but again, if you are never going to push EITHER anywhere near their limit, the decision may be different.

My primary concern is of reliability, etc and the company behind Pure Low...I cannot find out more so far. I have contacted and certainly very responsive and enthusiastic. A good start.
interesting you mention Funk Audio 18.2 subs.

in December i ordered 3 Funk Audio 18.0 subs for my updated Home Theater room, and they are nearly ready to ship to me now.


the Funk's have an interesting approach to room tuning. they use "alldsp" circuits and modules installed in the Funks. Nathan Funk will supply me with a super-splitter junction box to sum these 3 subs for one output from my Trinnov processor. when i get the Funks i will hook each Funk and my OmniMic v2 mic to my network and then Nathan will remote into my system and will then tune them to my room, i will be on site to do the grunt work.


 

dr k

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For historical purposes, lest we not forget, the idea of planar drivers that can function effectively as subwoofers is not new, although the Alsyvox Caravaggio is the latest (and apparently excellent) reincarnation of this idea. But in high end circles, it was Harry Pearson who proposed a novel but compelling custom solution for a SOA system using Magnepan panels as subwoofers in his famous Infinity "QRS-ID" hybrid system in the late 70's. Here is part of the review of this system from Issue 13 of TAS in 1978:

"Those who have read the reviews of the Tympani I-D (see Issue 11; also Editor’s Choice, Issue 12) and the Infinity QRS (Issue 12) may recall that this reviewer was less than delirious over the Tympani’s inability to resolve mid and high frequencies without serious veiling, especially at low levels. The QRS, on the other hand, was faulted (but not enough, I now conclude) for the low frequency colorations introduced by the bass box. Since both speakers—save for the QRS’s woofer section—are dipolar radiators of essentially ribbon-driven systems, it seemed logical to mate the strongest points of each; that is, the woofer system of the Tympani with the mid and high frequency panels of the QRS. And so we did.

The result is what we have decided to call the QRS-1D, a system of genuine musical authority and accuracy, possibly the “best” now extant."
I love the Tympani, one of my favorite speakers of all time. Magnepan was the brand that got me into the high end. While the bass driver was some of the best available at the time and still competes with the many high end bass drivers today, I think the Alsyvox Botticelli clearly surpasses the Tympani. The Tympani bass driver is single ended as the iron magnets are only on one side of the diaphragm, which limits control. And the excursion of the diaphragm is 2-3 mm at best before significant distortion set in. Alsyvox bass driver is symmetric with much stronger neodymium magnets on both sides of the diaphragm with nearly 20 mm of excursion capability. IME, Alsyvox is the first planar speaker that has bass punch approaching dynamic bass drivers. But I still love the Tympani. It’s just a very musical speaker.
 
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LL21

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interesting you mention Funk Audio 18.2 subs.

in December i ordered 3 Funk Audio 18.0 subs for my updated Home Theater room, and they are nearly ready to ship to me now.


the Funk's have an interesting approach to room tuning. they use "alldsp" circuits and modules installed in the Funks. Nathan Funk will supply me with a super-splitter junction box to sum these 3 subs for one output from my Trinnov processor. when i get the Funks i will hook each Funk and my OmniMic v2 mic to my network and then Nathan will remote into my system and will then tune them to my room, i will be on site to do the grunt work.


Hey Mike,

Fantastic...I very much would appreciate any feedback here on the quality of Funk's work. In particular, I have spoken at some length with Nathan Funk about dual 18.2s (each 18.2 has 2 opposing 18" drivers in a single 175lb box driven by a dedicated 4000watt amp and designed with its own adjustability to tailor sound to match the main system/speakers). The readings in an open plane, 2m standard distance are impressive to say the least and a single 18.2 appears to measure closer to 4 x Velodyne DD18+!!

My primary goal is not some kind of massive pressure cooker of bass, but in fact almost the opposite...something so effortless, so at ease with the level of bass the system is demanding of it...that the bass is smooth, nearly distortionless and eminently able to deliver that fantastic sense of recording venue, spacial cues of the hall which are truly (for me) one of the key goals of SOTA audio.

I note one of the things that the all-out assault speakers have is true surface area for movement of air. In the top category: your MM7s, the Genesis 1s, YG XV, VS Ultra 11, the Avalon Tesseract and to a lesser but still high degree Magico M9, Rockport Arrakis and then there is the Wilson XLF and Focal Grand Utopia. It is far from the only measurement...the WAMMs appear to prove that out being closer to XLF than to Arrakis in cone surface area. That said, I remain very intrigued about what happens if/when we add dual Funk 18.2x (4x 18" cones with 3" excursion, excellent measurements for low distortion to 10hz).
 
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Ovenmitt

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This is completely subjective but I do have the impression you need a bit more planar then cone surface area for the same “impact”. I do have more of that with the Caravaggios then I ever had with modern cone speakers right now, however in my first decade as an audiophile I have owned a few front horn loaded professional 15” to 18” JBL woofers which still reside in my memory of being the most percussive and concussive I ever experienced in a home environment. But this is 30 years ago.

I have just ordered my first set of vintage JBL speakers, beautifully restored by Kenrick Sound in Japan ( jbl43.com ). Just a 2 way, JBL D-130 15” + 075 compression driver. But sporting a claimed 105dB efficiency.

Depending on how this turns out I may try to find something like this:
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2021/...ml?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&m=1

Or this:
https://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=f339947279
Now we’re talkin!
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Hey Mike,

Fantastic...I very much would appreciate any feedback here on the quality of Funk's work. In particular, I have spoken at some length with Nathan Funk about dual 18.2s (each 18.2 has 2 opposing 18" drivers in a single 175lb box driven by a dedicated 4000watt amp and designed with its own adjustability to tailor sound to match the main system/speakers). The readings in an open plane, 2m standard distance are impressive to say the least and a single 18.2 appears to measure closer to 4 x Velodyne DD18+!!

My primary goal is not some kind of massive pressure cooker of bass, but in fact almost the opposite...something so effortless, so at ease with the level of bass the system is demanding of it...that the bass is smooth, nearly distortionless and eminently able to deliver that fantastic sense of recording venue, spacial cues of the hall which are truly (for me) one of the key goals of SOTA audio.

I note one of the things that the all-out assault speakers have is true surface area for movement of air. In the top category: your MM7s, the Genesis 1s, YG XV, VS Ultra 11, the Avalon Tesseract and to a lesser but still high degree Magico M9, Rockport Arrakis and then there is the Wilson XLF and Focal Grand Utopia. It is far from the only measurement...the WAMMs appear to prove that out being closer to XLF than to Arrakis in cone surface area. That said, I remain very intrigued about what happens if/when we add dual Funk 18.2x (4x 18" cones with 3" excursion, excellent measurements for low distortion to 10hz).
no replacement for displacement!!!!

my goal is to attain optimal bass performance in a problematic Home Theater room in my house. this room is off my family room and kitchen great room area. it's my wife's space and cannot be modified in a purposeful way like my 2 channel room in my barn. this HT room has a large window and patio doors on one side, and angled walls to a double door on the other side. so it's needs a scalpel-like agility and not just thunder.

somehow i want to have an exciting multi-channel movie and music experience, but my wife can still view it as part of her home decor. the Funk subs are like pieces of furniture with their curved cabinets but still deliver the goods.

my plan is after Funk measures the room in the bass, then Trinnov adjusts the 15 surround speakers (12 in the walls and ceiling), i'll have a better idea of exactly what sort of 'Wife-Approved' acoustic treatments i need to buy. i'll get those (from GIK) installed and then measure and adjust again.

btw; Nathan's place is a few hundred miles north of me a little north of Vancouver B.C.
 
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LL21

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no replacement for displacement!!!!

my goal is to attain optimal bass performance in a problematic Home Theater room in my house. this room is off my family room and kitchen great room area. it's my wife's space and cannot be modified in a purposeful way like my 2 channel room in my barn. this HT room has a large window and patio doors on one side, and angled walls to a double door on the other side. so it's needs a scalpel-like agility and not just thunder.

somehow i want to have an exciting multi-channel movie and music experience, but my wife can still view it as part of her home decor. the Funk subs are like pieces of furniture with their curved cabinets but still deliver the goods.

my plan is after Funk measures the room in the bass, then Trinnov adjusts the 15 surround speakers (12 in the walls and ceiling), i'll have a better idea of exactly what sort of 'Wife-Approved' acoustic treatments i need to buy. i'll get those (from GIK) installed and then measure and adjust again.

btw; Nathan's place is a few hundred miles north of me a little north of Vancouver B.C.
Fantastic...and my inclination (without direct experience other than hearing both the Genesis 1s and the Rockport Arrakis...and my much smaller version of adding the Velodyne DD18+)...is to agree with your opening line! No replacement for displacement indeed.

Have you heard Nathan's work before? What made you go with Funk?
 

Mike Lavigne

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Fantastic...and my inclination (without direct experience other than hearing both the Genesis 1s and the Rockport Arrakis...and my much smaller version of adding the Velodyne DD18+)...is to agree with your opening line! No replacement for displacement indeed.

Have you heard Nathan's work before? What made you go with Funk?

i have not heard Nathan's work personally, except at audio shows back a few years. i do know others who have his subs locally and recommend them. but Funk was not on my radar for the Home Theater subs.

how i actually choose Funk for this is that i was at the end point of a decision process and involved in the subwoofer forum on AVS and it had come down to the JTR and Rythmik subs and someone suggested the Funks at the same price point. i knew about his products and had a high regard for them.

i stepped back and then looked at it; the more i looked the more it made better sense and the quality and all hand built including the drivers (by one guy personally) aspect tipped me over. the 'alldsp' part i did not initially appreciate but as i come to learn it's actually a big deal and way more powerful tool than the free dsp software choices out there. and that Nathan does dial in the subs remotely. my wife is much happier with the fit and finish than she would have been with a bunch of big black boxes too. i just chose the stain color.
 

dr k

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Here are some photos of my nearly completed Caravaggio. The last photo is the internals the speaker. If you’ve ever seen the internals of most planar speakers or dynamic speakers for that matter, you can see how cleanly and meticulously Alsyvox manufactures their speakers. Color me impressed.
 

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Addicted to hifi

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Around 6 months ago we started planning relocating to a new larger facility. That facility could accommodate a much larger 8x14 meter listening room which would be a better fit for Alsyvox's largest model, the Caravaggio. The Carvaggio can be extended with additional subwoofer panels to fill larger spaces. You can add 1 pair of subwoofers to drive rooms larger then 80m2, and 2 pairs to drive rooms of over 100m2 in size (the 6 panel system is named "Michelangelo"). Each set of additional subwoofers also boosts overall system efficiency from 94 to 95 to 96dB.

Daniele once again visited us to aid in setting them up, a few photos:


View attachment 72238


View attachment 72239


View attachment 72240


From left to right: Daniele, @tsaett (Christoph) and me:

View attachment 72241

Daniele:

View attachment 72242

And a IMHO pretty cool drone video one of the guys made:

Wow absolutely stunning.
 
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Addicted to hifi

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Here are some photos of my nearly completed Caravaggio. The last photo is the internals the speaker. If you’ve ever seen the internals of most planar speakers or dynamic speakers for that matter, you can see how cleanly and meticulously Alsyvox manufactures their speakers. Color me impressed.
Amazing finish on there products.
 
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David Hyman

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Having only heard the Tintoretto at @Rhapsody I cannot comment on what to expect moving from that to the Botticelli, maybe Bob can weigh in on that as he has had both in his room. I can however comment on the differences between the Botticelli, Botticelli X and Caravaggio. We used the Focal Maestro Utopia EVO prior to the Botticelli. That does not really compare as the Botticelli, being a full range planar system has an entirely different presentation, and it's just plays in a different class altogether. Why I am mentioning this is because there was one thing which the Focals did "better", which was pin point imaging. This is where the "X" comes in. The "X" brings external crossovers to the equation, it's not just the same crossovers placed in an external cabinet, but the crossover circuit is different (though both are still 1st order) and you get higher quality parts. This brings that pin point imaging quality to the table, increases detail levels, drops the noise floor and increases transparency and clarity to shocking levels without negatively impacting musical performance.
Needless to say these external crossovers are standard on the top of the line Caravaggio.

The biggest difference with moving from the Botticelli X to the Caravaggio is in the midrange/upper registers. Low bass performance is similar, it plays with a tad more authority, extension seems similar, it has a bit more kick and bite in the upper bass, all in line with what you'd expect from a ~15% larger ribbon. However the midrange is a different story. The Caravaggio adds dual 37mm wide ribbons moving it from a 3-way to a 4-way design. That is a very significant step up in performance, I can't help but thinking ribbon surface area matters, a lot, especially in the midrange. Of course the crossover points change from 750-5000 to 500-1500-5000 which may very well play a part in this, though I don't believe that is the mayor actor as I'll outline later what happens if you turn it into a 5 way. But anyway, the midrange impact just becomes visceral / physical with the Caravaggio, adding more realism, 3 dimensionality and, just believability to the performance. Images are spawned into existence with an incredible manifestation power and force I have not heard experienced before. Very impressive.

On to the subwoofers. You have 2 ways to use these. You can turn it into a 5 way system by low passing the subwoofers and high passing the Caravaggio woofers at 70Hz, or you can run the Caravaggio full range and have the subwoofers augment low bass output till 70Hz. Cutting to the chase I did not get much from this. Turning it into a 5-way did appear to very slightly lower distortion but overall the performance did not improve notably over just the Caravaggio panels used stand alone. Using the subwoofers to augment low bass (running it in parallel with the Caravaggio woofers) only resulted in just too much low bass for my room. Although fun to play around with it for a while, it does produce some incredible room shaking output, it increases room noise too much with rattling walls furniture and gear. That just moves way to much air for my "humble" 66 m2 (710 ft2) space. The text on the Alsyvox website reads: "Also a separate dedicated subwoofer panel (one each channel) is available and it is recommended only in very big rooms from 80sqm", they're not kidding, I would recommend to not even consider these unless you do have that very large room. As we have a new 112m2 room under construction right now I will follow up on this later on. Right now I cannot even imagine what the Michelangelo with 4 of these beasts would be useful for, but if you have a huge open room and need insane bass output, there appears to be something out there for you. I will just add to this story I've owned a lot of active subwoofers in my life, the last ones being a pair of Rel Gibraltars, those did not move even close to the amount of air of just the Botticellis, let alone be even close to comparable in bass quality, detail or transparency.
Greetings! This is David Hyman, running Rhapsody California. In a few weeks I'll be running Caravaggio with Taiko Extreme and Pilium. My excitement level is off the charts! :)
 

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