The Miracle of Analog Sound

Steve Williams

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I should set up a little experiment/demo at one of the shows. Take an analog source, be it TT or R2R and split the signal. Have one side going directly to the pre-amp and have the other side go through the best AD/DA chain I have and see if folks can 1: hear a difference and 2: tell which one is the digital loop. Or then again, maybe set up to make it appear that there is an AD/DA loop and see if expectation bias takes over!! :D

so how do you think that experiment would go Bruce
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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I should set up a little experiment/demo at one of the shows. Take an analog source, be it TT or R2R and split the signal. Have one side going directly to the pre-amp and have the other side go through the best AD/DA chain I have and see if folks can 1: hear a difference and 2: tell which one is the digital loop. Or then again, maybe set up to make it appear that there is an AD/DA loop and see if expectation bias takes over!! :D

It would be an interesting experiment, but if they can't ID the undigitized analog, which is likely, they'll just question your system, your methodology, the listening condtions, etc.....

You could show a crowd of creationists all the dinasaur bones in the world and it would not move them.

Tim
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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It would be an interesting experiment, but if they can't ID the undigitized analog, which is likely, they'll just question your system, your methodology, the listening condtions, etc.....

You could show a crowd of creationists all the dinasaur bones in the world and it would not move them.

Tim

As opposed those who act like Moonies?
 

ack

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Let's look at a short list of the improvements that have come about in the design of analog playback systems over the last decade:

1. Drive systems/micro and macro-speed stability, in part controlling drag issues (see Bill Firebaugh)
2. Platter/plinth resonance control
3. Improved materials, bearings and machining (thanks to the Star Wars technology that seeped into the civilian population) leading to lowered noise floors
4. Better isolation and energy drain paths
5. Less resonant arms eg. instead of having multiple resonances, designing for a single peak and then damping (do I dare mention better internal wiring and connections/less connnections?)
6. Improved arm/cartridge geometry including more meticulous attention to cartridge alignment because of new tools available to the audiophile
7. Better cartridge design (a host of issues here), more exotic stylus shapes, better tracking and tracing of grooves

In addition: more and more-accurate cartridge alignment tools; USB microscopes and various measuring devices; better understanding of the angles/geometry involved; quieter and higher performing phono stages. All of these both lower the noise floor and actually dig more info out of the grooves.

I welcome and enjoy reading everyone's opinions on everything, but the outdated and uninformed clearly stand out quickly. One thing I will grant vinyl detractors is that it's expensive to get extreme performance out of this medium.
 

Bruce B

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so how do you think that experiment would go Bruce

Under show conditions.... with using a Grimm AD1 and Playback Designs MPS-5, no one would be able to tell the difference!

If I used a lowly Korg MR2000s at DSD128fs.... I'm sure I'd get the same results!!
 

rbbert

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I look forward to seeing/hearing this at RAMF! :)
 

JackD201

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Under show conditions.... with using a Grimm AD1 and Playback Designs MPS-5, no one would be able to tell the difference!

If I used a lowly Korg MR2000s at DSD128fs.... I'm sure I'd get the same results!!

At shows we've had a CD playing while the turntable is spinning and had folks say, "Wow, analog is really better!". I wouldn't bet against your prediction Bruce.

Results would really depend on the set of respondents.

Having said that, I will vouch for the advances in analog. It's night and day between my SL-1210 with a Shure MM cart vs my reference rig. You really do hear much, much more.

I will also vouch for improvements in digital, it used to be that I had to notch my tweeter response by about 2dB. It's no longer the case. I'm now happily running without a dip when I listen to digital.
 

cjfrbw

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I can vouch that I don't care if analog has more information, less information, or the same information.

Analog gives my brain a tasty, digestible meal.

Digital is a less digestible, hard nut with a bitter aftertaste. Maybe more nutrients, but not what the heart or mind craves.

I liked it better when analog wasn't cool. Movies and TV now show all the "cool" digs with vinyl and turntables. I miss my easy air strikes at the out of the way vinyl graveyards.
 

rbbert

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At shows we've had a CD playing while the turntable is spinning and had folks say, "Wow, analog is really better!". I wouldn't bet against your prediction Bruce.

Results would really depend on the set of respondents.

Having said that, I will vouch for the advances in analog. It's night and day between my SL-1210 with a Shure MM cart vs my reference rig. You really do hear much, much more.

I will also vouch for improvements in digital, it used to be that I had to notch my tweeter response by about 2dB. It's no longer the case. I'm now happily running without a dip when I listen to digital.

Gary has posted elsewhere about his show experiences using LP's and his music server; listeners commonly mistook one for the other.
 

JackD201

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Yeah, the downside of the resurgence is the competition for the good stuff.
 

rbbert

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It's interesting to examine this discussion from a philosophical point of view. For every advance in the purported quality of digitally processed/recorded/reproduced sound, there is claimed to be an improvement of similar magnitude in LP playback. This has been going on for at least 15 years now. Then to somewhat complicate the issue, there are those, such as Ethan Weiner and Monte (?), who claim that 16/44.1 PCM is as good as it gets, and these are people who love music and are careful listeners to reproduced sound. In the last few years, open reel tape has been put forth as a "new" reference (coincidentally at about the same time that most manufacturers of tape stopped manufacturing it). I guess it's possible that all these suppositions are "true", but logical principles would suggest that is not the case
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I can vouch that I don't care if analog has more information, less information, or the same information.

Analog gives my brain a tasty, digestible meal.

Excellent.

Digital is a less digestible, hard nut with a bitter aftertaste. Maybe more nutrients, but not what the heart or mind craves.

Some people like grapefruit better than grape soda. :) To each his own.

Tim
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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Digital is a less digestible, hard nut with a bitter aftertaste. Maybe more nutrients, but not what the heart or mind craves.

I've always loved brazil nuts - but they've always had a bitter aftertaste to other people that I've never experienced. Interestingly, they are a great source of easily digestible selenium, but could get toxic if you eat too many.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Under show conditions.... with using a Grimm AD1 and Playback Designs MPS-5, no one would be able to tell the difference!

If I used a lowly Korg MR2000s at DSD128fs.... I'm sure I'd get the same results!!


That was exactly my thought as well
 

FrantzM

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Under show conditions.... with using a Grimm AD1 and Playback Designs MPS-5, no one would be able to tell the difference!

If I used a lowly Korg MR2000s at DSD128fs.... I'm sure I'd get the same results!!

At shows we've had a CD playing while the turntable is spinning and had folks say, "Wow, analog is really better!". I wouldn't bet against your prediction Bruce.

<snip>

:D
 

mep

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I want to soften this up a little bit and comment about a few things that have been said. As most of you know, I’m invested in digital playback as well as analog. It’s not to the financial extent that some of you are invested in digital, but it’s an investment just the same. I certainly have more invested in digital software than I do in digital hardware. I have publically stated numerous times and even started a thread about how good I think Gary’s music server is. I enjoy digital and I do listen to it. I also don’t want to be wedded to a single source.

For those who said that digital has made advancements in sound quality as hardware and digital recording technology has improved, I agree. While I thought Myles’s statement that digital couldn’t get any worse was funny, I don’t share the same harsh feelings. However, for those of us who have multiple sources in our system because we want to be able to listen vinyl and digital or vinyl, tape and digital, I don’t recall a single person saying they prefer the sound of digital over analog. But that’s another story…

When you make a significant improvement to your vinyl playback system (and I know someone from the digital side will ask what ‘significant’ means and can I measure it and can I prove it because that is what digital objectivists do), it’s not one of those things where you have to sit down in your chair, close your eyes and concentrate as hard as you can in hopes that you might hear a difference. It’s usually so apparent It’s more like a “wow, I never heard that before” experience. I will concede that it can be a combination of lower distortion and digging more information from the grooves that causes the improvement.

I thought ACK made some really good points with regards to the improved tools at our disposal now that allow a precision of setup that could only have been dreamed of years ago. I also agree with ACK’s point that setting up a vinyl system to a high degree of precision takes a serious commitment from the owner and it’s not easy. ACK also touched on lower distortion electronics that get out of the way and let more information through. And I will freely admit that my setup is not at the level of perfection that ACK and some others have advanced to.

Tim on the other hand has postulated that if more information is coming through from vinyl, it’s not that we are actually retrieving more from the groove than we have been able to previously, it’s all because of the better tables, arms, and cartridges are lowering the distortion levels. I think that Tim clearly stated that we aren’t getting any new information from the grooves and that is what I and others here are disagreeing with.

Personally, if I didn’t own any digital playback gear and software and therefore never spent any time listening to it, I would feel rather odd proffering opinions on how digital sounded and challenging people on what they say they hear from digital. Because really, how the hell would I know? I wouldn’t.

But the inverse to my digital corollary above doesn’t hold true. We see plenty of examples of people who don’t own any analog gear proffering their opinions on how it sounds and what it can and can’t do and challenging analog lovers to constantly ‘prove’ what we can clearly hear.

An analogy that comes to mind is that of a guy who owns a Yugo and a Ferrari. Since he owns both and he drives both, he understands the differences between the two vehicles and how far apart their performance levels are. And yet when he tries to describe those differences to people who own Yugos, they demand proof that the Ferrari is actually a more high-performance vehicle. The guy that owns both the Yugo and the Ferrari just smiles because he obviously knows what the truth is. The Yugo people frown and look at the Ferrari owner with disdain because they know their Yugo sounds quieter than the Ferrari.
 

Keith_W

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Mar 31, 2012
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I should set up a little experiment/demo at one of the shows. Take an analog source, be it TT or R2R and split the signal. Have one side going directly to the pre-amp and have the other side go through the best AD/DA chain I have and see if folks can 1: hear a difference and 2: tell which one is the digital loop. Or then again, maybe set up to make it appear that there is an AD/DA loop and see if expectation bias takes over!! :D

I have done exactly this experiment. Analogue source from my SACD player with one loop going via a DEQX and the other is straight wire, and volume matched precisely. Very easy to tell which is which.
 

Bruce B

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I have done exactly this experiment. Analogue source from my SACD player with one loop going via a DEQX and the other is straight wire, and volume matched precisely. Very easy to tell which is which.

Your SACD player is not an analog source. Sorry.... and the DEQX.... 'nuf said.....
 

rbbert

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I have done exactly this experiment. Analogue source from my SACD player with one loop going via a DEQX and the other is straight wire, and volume matched precisely. Very easy to tell which is which.

Huh??
 

jazdoc

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Aug 7, 2010
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I thought ACK made some really good points with regards to the improved tools at our disposal now that allow a precision of setup that could only have been dreamed of years ago. I also agree with ACK’s point that setting up a vinyl system to a high degree of precision takes a serious commitment from the owner and it’s not easy. ACK also touched on lower distortion electronics that get out of the way and let more information through. And I will freely admit that my setup is not at the level of perfection that ACK and some others have advanced to.

Something rarely discussed is that as a consequence of vinyl's near death experience, there is a whole generation that doesn't know how to perform a set-up. Furthermore, the accumulated wisdom of yesteryears set-up guru's is being lost as they pass on to the great record store in the sky. Mark is correct, a good vinyl set up requires high quality tools, deft touch, good hearing and patience. For me, set up is an iterative process that is optimized over several listening sessions. Frankly, some people just aren't very good at it. I know someone who provides set up services. He has appalling stories of visiting customers with very expensive vinyl systems that were 'off by a mile; like someone did it intentionally'. Many of these customers were seemingly unaware. Moreover, they are often unmotivated to invest the time required to optimize their analog investment. And keep in mind that your 'spot-on' set up is likely to drift over time...it requires vigilance. I have started checking my set up every month when I re-charge my battery for the turntable.

Tim on the other hand has postulated that if more information is coming through from vinyl, it’s not that we are actually retrieving more from the groove than we have been able to previously, it’s all because of the better tables, arms, and cartridges are lowering the distortion levels. I think that Tim clearly stated that we aren’t getting any new information from the grooves and that is what I and others here are disagreeing with.

If your set up is spot on, you are retreiving more information AND lowering the noise floor AND reducing distortion. I have found that as you hit 'spot on' with a set up parameter, the volume level tends to increase. IMO, as the mechanical parameters are optimized, the system works at its optimal efficiency.

One last thought, I have a signficant digital investment. Some of my favorite current music is only available digitally. Yet I rarely listen to my digital source. I listen to more CDs in the car than at home. I'm agnostic as to software. While I love holding and collecting LPs, vinyl is a LOT of work and the covenience of digital would easy convert me, if only it was as good or better than my analog system.
 
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