ack's system - end of round 1

cjf · Jan 19, 2018

Thank You Ack & Peter for the details.

I will try and acquire a small slab of ISODamp to play around with. It is rather difficult to find in general which I find odd. I guess the company makes enough money from commercial sales to not care about the other money lingering out there they may be able to make by entertaining the Audiophile crowd. Must be nice

PeterA · Jan 20, 2018

ack said:
Is the platter's Isodamp pliable? I bet it is, at least more so compared to what I use, which would indicate less need for compression - so a different version of Isodamp (C-1002 is just one of them), if that were true. And if you were to compress the pieces I gave you under your XP-25, I bet you would like the results, like your friend Alan did under his tube amps. I like the fact SME attach it to the steel chassis, to absorb vibrations picked up by the metal - very smart. It's effectively along the lines of what VPI are doing by sandwiching the aluminum base plate between acrylic, in my turntable.

The SME turntable platter surface/mat is fragile and scrolled like an LP, so I have not tried to compress it. If it were fairly pliable, then I would think it would be difficult to cut the scroll pattern with the diamond cutter. It can be scratched if not careful. Your C-1002 is fairly rigid but it can be cut with a clean, smooth edge, so my guess is that it is fairly similar to the platter/mat surface. The platter surface is thinner than your 0.25" sheet, perhaps 0.125".

The dampening material on the underside of each of the steel chassis seems to be about the same consistency as your 0.25" sheet but perhaps very slightly thinner, but they look about the same, just a different color. What is interesting is that the entire bottom surface is covered except for cut outs. It is simply adhered to the surface, as is the platter mat, with no pressure at all. So it is effective at dampening resonances without any compression or weight. Simple contact seems to be sufficient, unlike the constrained layer constructions of some plinths and platters.

I read in the Isodamp literature somewhere on one of the many sheets that in certain applications they mention 50 lbs per square inch as a load. That would mean that for under your XP-25 with four 1" square DIY footers, that the total load would need to be 200 lbs. Even with your tuner and extra marble weights, it can not be close to that. Absent specific compression recommendations in their literature for their different thickness sheets, it is not clear to me how to optimize usage of the product. It is also used in the automobile industry for sound dampening in doors. I imagine here it would also simply be stuck onto the metal and not under compression to be effective.

The SME example is in stark contrast to the contention/claim that it must be highly compressed to work well. I remain open minded that Isodamp can be effective in certain applications, but it is not clear to me what the recommended method of use is. The literature that I have been reading lately on the EAR site does not make it clear. One of my concerns about placing ballast weights above components just so that the total weight is increased on the Isodamp footers placed below the component is that my electronics need space around them for air circulation. My new Pass preamp gets very hot, as do the two amps. The last think I want is to place a heavy steel ballast plate on top of my preamp which would restrict ventilation and cooling. The phono stage is not as hot, but then there is also the available clearance in my rack to consider. I don't want to add battery powered fans in the back of my rack to address a problem created by loading my gear with steel plates.

I may consider experimenting with thin strips of Isodamp on top of my gear as the sample scrap pieces seemed to work so well on my amps at reducing casework resonances, or perhaps adhering strips along the underside of the chassis and keeping the stock footers. Absent specific recommendations from EAR, experimentation seems to be the only way to figure out how to optimize the use of Isodamp in particular situations.

Thank you Tasos for helping to bring the use of this product to our attention.

ack · Jan 20, 2018

PeterA said:
The SME turntable platter surface/mat is fragile and scrolled like an LP, so I have not tried to compress it. If it were fairly pliable, then I would think it would be difficult to cut the scroll pattern with the diamond cutter. It can be scratched if not careful. Your C-1002 is fairly rigid but it can be cut with a clean, smooth edge, so my guess is that it is fairly similar to the platter/mat surface. The platter surface is thinner than your 0.25" sheet, perhaps 0.125".

The dampening material on the underside of each of the steel chassis seems to be about the same consistency as your 0.25" sheet but perhaps very slightly thinner, but they look about the same, just a different color. What is interesting is that the entire bottom surface is covered except for cut outs. It is simply adhered to the surface, as is the platter mat, with no pressure at all. So it is effective at dampening resonances without any compression or weight. Simple contact seems to be sufficient, unlike the constrained layer constructions of some plinths and platters.

I read in the Isodamp literature somewhere on one of the many sheets that in certain applications they mention 50 lbs per square inch as a load. That would mean that for under your XP-25 with four 1" square DIY footers, that the total load would need to be 200 lbs. Even with your tuner and extra marble weights, it can not be close to that. Absent specific compression recommendations in their literature for their different thickness sheets, it is not clear to me how to optimize usage of the product. It is also used in the automobile industry for sound dampening in doors. I imagine here it would also simply be stuck onto the metal and not under compression to be effective.

The SME example is in stark contrast to the contention/claim that it must be highly compressed to work well. I remain open minded that Isodamp can be effective in certain applications, but it is not clear to me what the recommended method of use is. The literature that I have been reading lately on the EAR site does not make it clear. One of my concerns about placing ballast weights above components just so that the total weight is increased on the Isodamp footers placed below the component is that my electronics need space around them for air circulation. My new Pass preamp gets very hot, as do the two amps. The last think I want is to place a heavy steel ballast plate on top of my preamp which would restrict ventilation and cooling. The phono stage is not as hot, but then there is also the available clearance in my rack to consider. I don't want to add battery powered fans in the back of my rack to address a problem created by loading my gear with steel plates.

I may consider experimenting with thin strips of Isodamp on top of my gear as the sample scrap pieces seemed to work so well on my amps at reducing casework resonances, or perhaps adhering strips along the underside of the chassis and keeping the stock footers. Absent specific recommendations from EAR, experimentation seems to be the only way to figure out how to optimize the use of Isodamp in particular situations.

Thank you Tasos for helping to bring the use of this product to our attention.

A couple of things: I strongly suspect you have a different version of Isodamp on your SME, where compression is not that much of a requirement. C-1002's specifications are clear and Magico also follow them. Also notice, the C-1002 is sticky and yours isn't, at least what's on the platter. So they have to be different. It may be worth to just ask SME what specifically they are using.

Regardless, attaching damping material to any metal ought to have a positive effect, as you found out when placing it on your amps' top plate. It seems to me SME are making sure the metal platter and metal plates do not pick up vibrations, as opposed to perhaps using it as a mat. All in all, I am convinced SME know what they are doing, as is Magico and myself, though indeed, I cannot put 200lbs worth of load on it, if the 50PSI figure you quoted is correct, except under my speakers. BTW, all Isodamp versions that I looked up can be had with an adhesive backing as well.

I didn't know the automotive industry uses it too; I know some are using RoadKill, a tar-like substance that I also use inside the speaker cabinets - that's another use case where dampening material is attached to metal to absorb vibrations and deaden it.

Next, back to the sound allegedly improving during our last audition here... Al mentioned I may have power problems. Al is sharp. As I was connecting the newly arrived MIT Magnum Z-Trap the other day, I noticed the Typhon's power cord was detached - major UGH! I don't know which of re-attaching it and/or plugging in the Z-Trap had the most positive effect, but the increase in resolution and decrease in distortion was immediate and quite obvious. Those low-level triangles on the Mahler 2nd are everywhere, and had never noticed them in many places before, especially during crescendos. I am really eager to see what this upcoming Spectral power conditioner will do, when it's eventually released. But more than clearly, all of my electronics need power conditioning.

Finally, here's the weirdest thing I have ever done - I've always had slight hash noise from my tuner, and the moment I grounded the antenna, it went away. I have never heard of antenna grounding before.

Good luck playing with thin Isodamp strips on any metal - not a bad idea for all of us; I'd consider the 1/8 inch or 1/16 inch versions.

LL21 · Jan 20, 2018

ack said:
A couple of things: I strongly suspect you have a different version of Isodamp on your SME, where compression is not that much of a requirement. C-1002's specifications are clear and Magico also follow them. Also notice, the C-1002 is sticky and yours isn't, at least what's on the platter. So they have to be different. It may be worth to just ask SME what specifically they are using.

Regardless, attaching damping material to any metal ought to have a positive effect, as you found out when placing it on your amps' top plate. It seems to me SME are making sure the metal platter and metal plates do not pick up vibrations, as opposed to perhaps using it as a mat. All in all, I am convinced SME know what they are doing, as is Magico and myself, though indeed, I cannot put 200lbs worth of load on it, if the 50PSI figure you quoted is correct, except under my speakers. BTW, all Isodamp versions that I looked up can be had with an adhesive backing as well.

I didn't know the automotive industry uses it too; I know some are using RoadKill, a tar-like substance that I also use inside the speaker cabinets - that's another use case where dampening material is attached to metal to absorb vibrations and deaden it.

Next, back to the sound allegedly improving during our last audition here... Al mentioned I may have power problems. Al is sharp. As I was connecting the newly arrived MIT Magnum Z-Trap the other day, I noticed the Typhon's power cord was detached - major UGH! I don't know which of re-attaching it and/or plugging in the Z-Trap had the most positive effect, but the increase in resolution and decrease in distortion was immediate and quite obvious. Those low-level triangles on the Mahler 2nd are everywhere, and had never noticed them in many places before, especially during crescendos. I am really eager to see what this upcoming Spectral power conditioner will do, when it's eventually released. But more than clearly, all of my electronics need power conditioning.

Finally, here's the weirdest thing I have ever done - I've always had slight hash noise from my tuner, and the moment I grounded the antenna, it went away. I have never heard of antenna grounding before.

Good luck playing with thin Isodamp strips on any metal - not a bad idea for all of us; I'd consider the 1/8 inch or 1/16 inch versions.

I wonder if grounding your antennae effectively gave you a better quality signal? I often recall just touching my old antenna made the signal much stronger.

PeterA · Jan 20, 2018

ack said:
A couple of things: I strongly suspect you have a different version of Isodamp on your SME, where compression is not that much of a requirement. C-1002's specifications are clear and Magico also follow them. Also notice, the C-1002 is sticky and yours isn't, at least what's on the platter. So they have to be different. It may be worth to just ask SME what specifically they are using.

Ack, could you provide a link which specifies the weight and or compression requirements in the EAR literature or in Magico's writings for the use of C-1002? I have searched extensively for any such mention and have come up empty. I should also add, that I have found one review by Fremer of an SME turntable which mentions that Isodamp is used on the platter surface but no mention of the material adhered to the underside of the two chassis. That material may or may not even be Isodamp. Yes, I suspect the scrolled Isodamp on the platter surface is a different composition from what you have in your footers. It is certainly thinner.

I also suspect that weight is not such a critical requirement because on a lbs per square in basis, the weight on the Isodamp pad under your VPI motor controller can not be very high, and as you report, it is very effective in that application. Compounding this suspicion is that if you are stacking four square 1" pieces to assemble each footer, you have essentially a 1' thick piece of Isodamp and if we are to use the 50lbs specification per square inch for a 1/4" piece, then it would have to be 200 lbs for each of your footers X4 or 800 lbs total weight on your XP-25 footers. This leads me to think that you are way under any weight requirement considering the thickness of your footers. This is why I would like to see a specific specification from EAR about this requirement and from Magico. Sure, Magico speakers are 400 lbs on four footers, so 100 pounds per footer. And the Isodamp used in their front baffles is certainly compressed by the bolt/rod mechanism, but still, I'd like to see any mention of this by Magico.

I did find these two articles which discuss dampening versus isolation. Perhaps our discussion should be more specific. You seem to be doing both in your system, particularly with your speakers. The pieces on my amps were dampening, the SME is dampening. The footers are isolating, or at least that is the intended goal. EAR encourages contact with questions, so perhaps someone really interested in this should contact them, describe what it is they intend to accomplish, and ask for recommendations. I'm sure they could also address the weight/compression specification.

https://www.rathbun.com/pdfs/EAR-pdf/E-A-R Understanding Damping Techniques.pdf

https://www.rathbun.com/pdfs/EAR-pd...ion Isolation Using Elastomeric Materials.pdf

ack · Jan 20, 2018

Here's what Magico's short blurb (I've sent this to you before many times) http://magico.net/product/mpod.php

Magico’s noise channeling support system for medium to heavy loads.

...

A solid pure-copper substrate center section is sandwiched by a top and bottom layer of ISODAMP a thermoplastic material that, when compressed against the copper substrate, facilitates the constrained layer damping function and dissipates unwanted energy virtually immediately.

Notice, for the MPods to be as effective under electronic components as I have read, they must be compressing the Isodamp inside them. Personally, I don't believe that 50PSI spec you mentioned, if it's coming from the internet. Your friend Alan's private positive write-up regarding his tube amps is enough to convince anyone that this 50 PSI figure may not be true for it to be effective, and by contrast under his light tube preamp it had no positive effect, never mind what I or Magico say; and in your tests, you were not compressing it enough (just Alan's light preamp), so it was passing vibrations on.

PeterA · Jan 20, 2018

ack said:
Here's what Magico's short blurb (I've sent this to you before many times) http://magico.net/product/mpod.php

Notice, for the MPods to be as effective under electronic components as I have read, they must be compressing the Isodamp inside them. Personally, I don't believe that 50PSI spec you mentioned, if it's coming from the internet. Your friend Alan's private positive write-up regarding his tube amps is enough to convince anyone that this 50 PSI figure may not be true for it to be effective, and by contrast under his light tube preamp it had no positive effect, never mind what I or Magico say; and in your tests, you were not compressing it enough (just Alan's light preamp), so it was passing vibrations on.

Yes, it looks like trial and error is necessary as Magico does not specify amount of "compression". As I contend, the compression under your VPI motor controller must be much less, especially considering that I think you are using a big pad the size of the motor bottom itself, so perhaps 2 or 3 pounds per square inch if the motor weighs ten pounds or so. Maybe your weight compression comments are based on isolation rather than dampening and in the case of your turntable motor, it is dampening the motor's vibrations from reaching the plinth rather than isolating the motor from floor born vibrations. I think you tested this with a stethoscope.

Under your phono stage, if it weights 20 lbs, plus the 20 lbs of your tuner, plus the 10 lbs of your marble pieces, that is about 50 lbs total. Divided by four the feet is 12.5 lbs per footer. If you have stacked four 0.25" X 1" square pieces to form each footer, that is only 3.125 lbs per square inch for each piece of 0.25" C-1002. Not a lot of weight and similar to the weight under your VPI motor.

I would completely disregard my comment about the 50 lbs in the EAR literature. I can not re-relocate that on their website, so, we still have no specific weight recommendation for efficacy of the C-1002 product. Magico compresses the Isodamp on each side of the copper disk in each footer. It is not clear that the weight of the speaker compresses it further or if the load from the speaker passes through a metal column in the center of the assembly. Without further specifics from either Isodamp or Magico, I remain curious about how much compression or weight is required and whether we are discussion resonance dampening or component isolation, or both. The few anecdotal examples of it working in various systems or not is not enough to reach firm conclusions in my mind. It clearly works on my amp top plates and SME turntable with ZERO compression/weight, but it did not work under my preamps or power supplies or turntable motor. It worked under my friend Alan's amp but not under his preamp. Is that enough to conclude that it is all about the weight/compression? I'd like to know more about it but absent anything specific from the manufacturer, it seems we are left to experiment on our own. I might contact EAR next week.

I just read that MPods are recommended under heavy electronic components such as amps but not lighter components. I think they are meant only for use under specific speaker models and perhaps amps, though I have not heard of anyone who has done that. They also cost about $8K for a set of three. That puts them close to the cost of active isolation platforms and very expensive for under electronics. Magico recommended to me the use of Qpods under components and I do not know if those have Isodamp in their construction. QPods are much less expensive.

EAR also mentions coverage of the material and the surface being dampened. Increased coverage lessens the amount of weight/compression per square inch. This further makes me think that we are discussing two phenomena: resonance dampening and component isolation.

Adimon · Jan 20, 2018

Hi Ack
When i put my hand on top of my DMC or DMA during playing music I feel that the lid is vibrating strongly.
Resulting in microphonic behavior of the electronic circuits inside.
Do you recognize this and did you also found a solution for this?

ack · Jan 20, 2018

Here's more from Magico https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/696-magico-mpod-support-system

The MPod works on the principle of constrained-layer damping (CLD). According to Wikipedia, CLD is “a mechanical engineering technique for suppression of vibration. Typically a viscoelastic or other damping material is sandwiched between two sheets of stiff materials that lack sufficient damping by themselves. The end result is, any vibration made on ether side of the constraining materials (the two stiffer materials on the sides) are trapped and evidently dissipated in the viscoelastic or middle layer.” CLD can be produced by combinations of many different materials -- I’ve seen speakers whose cabinets take advantage of CLD by comprising two sheets of MDF separated by a layer of damping material. Magico achieves CLD with multiple layers of machined aluminum, copper, and Isodamp, a material “specifically designed to prevent ringing in lightweight precision equipment frames or to reduce hydrodynamic vibrations in massive ship hulls, and anything in between,” according to its manufacturer. According to Yair Tammam, Magico’s chief technical officer, the MPod is a “broadband device” that works across a wide range of frequencies, absorbing and dissipating microvibrations generated by the speaker’s drive-units.

Notice: "lightweight precision equipment" and "massive ship hulls" and "broadband device" - it sounds like it's all about configuration, perhaps thickness, but does not exclude compression for lightweight equipment to make it effective.

Your phono weight calculations are a little off, in the sense that the rear is now much heavier than the front of the unit, about 2/3's heavier in the back.

ack · Jan 20, 2018

Adimon said:
Hi Ack
When i put my hand on top of my DMC or DMA during playing music I feel that the lid is vibrating strongly.
Resulting in microphonic behavior of the electronic circuits inside.
Do you recognize this and did you also found a solution for this?

Everything-Spectral vibrates, unfortunately, including the heatsinks (clap close to them to see). I use Sorbothane under all of them and weigh down the top plates.

PeterA · Jan 20, 2018

ack said:
Here's more from Magico https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/696-magico-mpod-support-system

Notice: "lightweight precision equipment" and "massive ship hulls" and "broadband device" - it sounds like it's all about configuration, perhaps thickness, but does not exclude compression for lightweight equipment to make it effective.

Yes, it seems to have very broad uses and specifics about how it is to be optimized in audio seem hard to find. You are reporting good results with very little weight/compression on the material in some cases, and more weight on the material in other cases. There does not seem to be a consistent recommendation and perhaps more must be happening if poor results are reported in other situations. The thought that a similar material is used for airplane engine mounts and ship hulls and lightweight precision equipment frames makes me wonder what specifications are most appropriate for our use in audio and what the precise recommendations are. The MPod is broad band because of the different materials used in the assembly. Isodamp used by itself may not be so broadband, and in some circumstances seems to harm sound quality.

PeterA · Jan 20, 2018

ack said:
Everything-Spectral vibrates, unfortunately, including the heatsinks (clap close to them to see). I use Sorbothane under all of them and weight down the top plates.

Interesting. Have you tried Isodamp with any of your Spectral gear? My Pass heatsinks ring also. I did not know Spectral gear is also susceptible to this. Does your Sorbothane come into close contact with the hot heatsinks and if so, are there any issues? How do you keep those from ringing?

ack · Jan 20, 2018

PeterA said:
Interesting. Have you tried Isodamp with any of your Spectral gear? My Pass heatsinks ring also. I did not know Spectral gear is also susceptible to this. Does your Sorbothane come into close contact with the hot heatsinks and if so, are there any issues? How do you keep those from ringing?

What doesn't vibrate... No one puts dampers on heatsinks as far as I know; I use Sorbothane feet; I did not try Isodamp yet, I am about to, on the transport.

andromedaaudio · Jan 20, 2018

What doesn't vibrate....... HPL.

microstrip · Jan 20, 2018

Adimon said:
Hi Ack
When i put my hand on top of my DMC or DMA during playing music I feel that the lid is vibrating strongly.
Resulting in microphonic behavior of the electronic circuits inside.
Do you recognize this and did you also found a solution for this?

IMHO you must trace the source of the vibration before considering it a problem and killing it. Why does it vibrate?

andromedaaudio · Jan 20, 2018

In amps its usually powersupply /transformers , in CD players the transport / drive off course , speakers shouldnt ring at all

, thats been solved already no matter if you use spikes or more complicated coupling devices.
Slightly off topic the" balanced" audio research power amp i listened to last weekend hardly makes a sound at all very quit for a tube amp

andromedaaudio · Jan 20, 2018

Any off you guys wanna do a speaker/subwoofer vibration test ?
Place a water glass on top off the speaker/housing and play ear deafening levels , see if you see wrinkles in the water ?

andromedaaudio · Jan 20, 2018

No answer yet lol .
I think a lot of amps /CD players could improve with a cnc machined HPL housing , it would work with amps that dont need much cooling like class D or a pre amp/CD player .
It would also be very effective as amp stands or racks , never understood why kharma never put HPL amp stands on the market.
Or cable network boxes

, much deader then the carbon fiber or plastic /aluminium ones for sure

Plus it would make the ideal reference tape machine housing

microstrip · Jan 20, 2018

andromedaaudio said:
In amps its usually powersupply /transformers , in CD players the transport / drive off course , speakers shouldnt ring at all , thats been solved already no matter if you use spikes or more complicated coupling devices.
Slightly off topic the" balanced" audio research power amp i listened to last weekend hardly makes a sound at all very quit for a tube amp

IMHO we can not understand or find answers just going by "usually". Equipment, systems and rooms are so different that unless we focus on specific cases everyone is wrong and everyone is right.

ack · Jan 20, 2018

andromedaaudio said:
Any off you guys wanna do a speaker/subwoofer vibration test ?
Place a water glass on top off the speaker/housing and play ear deafening levels , see if you see wrinkles in the water ?

No disagreement in general from me, but there is also such a video with the Q7 - posted years ago here, and you can probably easily find it on youtube. No ripples. However, I had said back then that I stuck my ear on the box and I could easily hear the music - so no perfect solutions. I just love companies that try to push the envelope.

ack's system - end of round 1

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