Reviewing the Furutec Demag

Well we have made a progress from no difference to the difference must be from something else. Now the question is the ball back across the net? Is it time for those who believe the demag makes a difference to demand proof from the non-believers? What would Michael Fremer say if armed with such information?

Not yet, Greg :) I think that while I don't think that in this specific instance the de-mag makes an audible difference, there may have been problems with the protocol. My fault. But like I said, this was inserted in the middle of a session of a wholly different objective.
 
Actually I believe it is the other way around. Vinyl misses the last degree of detail

Exactly. To be more specific, vinyl adds distortion and noise that mask low level details, and vinyl often has a non-flat frequency response which can be pleasing depending on the specific curve.

The digital adds more detail

In fact digital doesn't add anything, other than low-level noise and distortion whose amount depends mainly on the bit depth as mentioned above. This is my whole point. It is trivial to prove beyond all doubt that competent digital captures everything you throw at it, within the bounds of sample rate and bit depth as explained earlier. The proof is in the null test, which can be done using any DAW software including the freeware ones. Since it's easy to prove, and the software is free, why is this still being argued about in 2011?

--Ethan
 
I was listening to digital and it adds a certain steely bright quality to the music. I am certainly not sure whether that is inherent in the digital conversion process or inferior machine. As to vinyls shortcomings All i have to say is the Walker tt with the Airtight Supreme.
 
so why not take the bait?

I'm not baiting you, but I am challenging you to think this through to help you arrive at the correct conclusion.

what digital misses to varying degrees when compared to better vinyl pressing is;

--low-level detail
--decay in notes
--space, sense of hall
--tonal texture and transparency in the mid-range
--fullness and substance
--organic signature of instruments
--chestiness of vocals
--bloom and openness
--bass energy and flow.
--focus and precision

added note; a couple other areas where vinyl does better.

--resolving musical threads and detail during complicated passages
--vividness of presentation--digital is 'muted' in comparison.

Every single one of those qualities is poorly and vaguely expressed. What is chestiness? Please define it leaving no room for misinterpretation. Same for organic signature, tonal texture, focus and precision, and bloom and openness. The only descriptive qualities in your list that actually mean something are bass energy and fullness, which of course are better expressed as low frequency response. It's easy to prove that competent digital has a frequency response accurate enough to not change the sound audibly.

Mike, as I explained above, it is trivial to prove that competent digital recording captures everything you give it using a null test. I hope you are not arguing that a null test is not definitive proof! And, saying this as nicely as possible, I really hope you can see how flawed and incomplete your argument is.

--Ethan
 
Hopefully as the owner of this thread, Greg will keep this one from blending into the parallel one discussing the same topic or the usual CD versus LP debate :). ;)
 
@Ethan Winer

I'll be as polite as I can possibly be as well. I'm trying my very best to take your word you really aren't just baiting. If you don't mind, just to remove all doubts please answer this one question. Why do you ask others to define what they hear leaving no room for misinterpretation when you refuse to even try it for the sake of discourse?

Just to be clear that I'm not putting words in your mouth......

What I hear versus what you or others hear is irrelevant. Plus, how could I describe what I hear in a way that would be understood by anyone else?

--Ethan
 
Why do you ask others to define what they hear leaving no room for misinterpretation when you refuse to even try it for the sake of discourse?

I don't ask others to define what they hear. I ask them to define what they believe accounts for what they (think they) hear. This is a subtle but important difference. Further, I didn't ask Mike what he hears. I asked him to state specifically what he believes digital audio cannot capture.

In this case, every single one of the audiophile type terms Mike used can be better expressed using the standard four parameters - frequency response, distortion, noise, and time-based errors. Why say bloom and openness when "3 dB shelving boost above 4 KHz" is so much more accurate and leaves no room for interpetation?

--Ethan
 
. Why say bloom and openness when "3 dB shelving boost above 4 KHz" is so much more accurate and leaves no room for interpetation?
--Ethan

Because most audiophiles don't understand engineer terminology. Just as most engineers don't understand audiophile terminology. I've been dealing with this for over 20 years. People come into my mastering room and ask that the cello be more lush and full-bodied, or the piano to be more airy and transparent. I have to translate that language into what I feel they are asking for. It's called good customer relations. Ethan, it is our duty to translate that into a language that you can understand.
 
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So Paul wrote his own software and threw out a few tantalizing tidbits about secondary resonance effects. Tom was right that tonearms/cartridges were designed to have a combined resonance that is lower than most speakers can go except for the Bass Pig. 8Hz is a good example. Amir is right that the focus of this short article (unless I'm missing some pages) is about secondary resonances. I personally don't have any woofers flapping in the breeze of resonances.

He did not throw out a few tantalizing tidbits, he has defined what parameters need to actually be measured.
You do know Paul Miller at one time was one of the leading measurement tools developer?
So I think you are doing a bit of a disservice.
Also as I mentioned another magazine does measurements that are not as detailed as the one Paul has created, however it does support a lot of what he says.

As an example in this other publication they measure g-acceleration with cartridge connected (so its cartridge-arm-mounting-etc).
On a cheap turntable with a basic cartridge this is how it measured, being very cheap it will suffer pretty badly from various vibrations and resonances.

There is a vibration at 8-12hz but it is minimal compared to what occurs at higher FR, in fact the higher FR is substantially worse than any 8-12hz vibration and this comes through on all the measurements I have checked so far.
This is probably why neither of these magazines bother going into detail about the very low resonance as it is minor in the scale of things (for a correctly setup table including very cheap ones under £200 as in this example).
Anyway this is what they say.
The simple tubular arm was inevitably lively, with a 0.45g third order bending mode at 690hz obvious in our vibration analysis.
However, the main arm tube mode at 230hz is well damped so the arm is stiff, if a little ringy.
The headshell was lively, shown in the peaks at right (5-6khz), but this is not uncommon.

And the measurements at 5-6khz is frantic (10x worse), while the main arm mode is about 50% more energy than 8-12hz
On a £14,000 complete TT, the 8-12hz vibration is identical level to the £200 one and it is minimal, with the main tube mode same value as the 8-12hz, and only a noticable (double that of the 8-12hz) narrow peak 3rd order bending mode at 450hz, showing how better engineering can manage resonances and vibrations, but has the same value at 8hz with that of the £200 TT.

I guess my point is that while there is the low level FR vibration, you should be picking up on the much higher resonances-vibrations as this are usually over 2x to 10x in magnitude and importantly be the ones that color the music.

I will keep looking to see if there is a product that actually does have a major 8-12hz vibration but so far nada, which as I mentioned may tie in with why Paul Miller and this other publication are not going out of their way for that specific 8hz characteristic.
I am curious why Bass Pig is picking up only the 8hz instead of what is happening in the higher FR and will try to find if there is anything measured that I can correlate to it (but not looking good at moment).

Thanks
Orb
 
People come into my mastering room and ask that the cello be more lush and full-bodied, or the piano to be more airy and transparent. I have to translate that language into what I feel they are asking for.

Absolutely, and fully agreed. With many terms, such as those you listed, it's not difficult to understand what is meant. But the people in this discussion are audio professionals, or at least professional reviewers, so it's not a stretch IMO to expect people to use professional terms. Further, what do tonal texture, substance, organic signature, bloom, flow, and focus and precision mean? Those are so vague that they're meaningless to me. And certainly they will mean different things to different people due to the same vagueness. Same for PRaT, which are also vague. If a term means something different to every person, then I don't see how it's useful.

--Ethan
 
Orb-What is the point to showing the tonearm resonances? Is someone doing research to try and improve tonearm design or is this just another finger being poked in the analog eye? I do find this interesting because I never knew about secondary tonearm resonances and I still don't know how audible they are or aren't. I wonder why at this late stage of the game this type of information is just coming out. Do you have an LP set up in your stereo system Orb?
 
Ethan Winer;38685 (...) Why say [I said:
bloom and openness[/I] when "3 dB shelving boost above 4 KHz" is so much more accurate and leaves no room for interpetation?

--Ethan

I would like to see what would be the reverse - if I ask a recording engineer to translate in words what is the effect of "3 dB shelving boost above 4 KHz" what would be his words?
Bruce , unhappily you are now biased ...
 
Every single one of those qualities is poorly and vaguely expressed.

not to listeners. my fellow listeners know exactly what i am referring to when i use any of the terms on my list. in fact; i'll bet musicians would also have a pretty good idea of those terms too.

i do not expect you to get it.

and your very predicable answer is why i consider your question 'baiting'; you know what i'll say and how i'll say it. and i know how you will respond. we could cut and paste this exchange into any vinyl thread you get into.

we've already had this same exchange.
 
Ethan, if you take a digital signal and successively reduce its resolution (in bits). How would you describe the fidelity reduction at each step?
 
Ethan, if you take a digital signal and successively reduce its resolution (in bits). How would you describe the fidelity reduction at each step?

Reduce it's bits? Ethan thinks 16/44.1 is good enough and it sounds the same as 32/gazillion kHz.
 
Ethan, if you take a digital signal and successively reduce its resolution (in bits). How would you describe the fidelity reduction at each step?

Amir, by 'fidelity' are you referring to how we percieve it sounding subjectively? or by some sort of measurement? or are you open as to which way it could be answered?

i just don't want to read more into your question than you intended.
 
Maybe anything at 16/44.1 or higher does sound the same to him.
 
Reduce it's bits? Ethan thinks 16/44.1 is good enough and it sounds the same as 32/gazillion kHz.
I am asking him to start at 16 and go down as far as he needs to go to hear a fidelity difference and then give us some words to explain it.

And yes Mike, I am asking for English language explanation of what he perceives. We already know the technical explanation.

Hoping to get us a to common vocabulary :).
 
Ethan, if you take a digital signal and successively reduce its resolution (in bits). How would you describe the fidelity reduction at each step?
To be fair to Ethan, this is merely doing a volume attenuation; there should be nothing else in the chain which then correspondingly boosts the signal, so you hear what's happening at reduced volume. If you did this to a potentiometer, the signal at the bottom of the travel would start to sound pretty sick!

Frank
 

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