Confessions of an Audiophile Junky-I Got Center Stage With Pitch Perfect Sound

mountainjoe said:

Hi Joe - I’m just speculating given you noted a 30% improvement going from 3 to 4 feet - which is a 33% increase in # of feet. This would suggest a linear, additive improvement so extrapolating from that (albeit based on only one data point), going from 4 to 5 feet could yield a 25% improvement and another 20% going from 5 to 6 - and so on.

I can’t say I understand how these things operate but if you are dealing with a mechanism that is sinking energy, a log-linear (non-coherent) additive relationship would be typical.

This is of course a gross simplification based on a single data point but it might be interesting to see what happens;-)

Cheers, Joe

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Hi Joe

You might be right, but I honestly haven't tried it. I don't think it's safe for either one of us to speculate for the reason you mentioned in your last sentence..

joelavrencik said:

Hi Joe

You might be right, but I honestly haven't tried it. I don't think it's safe for either one of us to speculate for the reason you mentioned in your last sentence..

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Well what fun would that be if we couldn’t promote wild speculation on an internet forum

All kidding aside, that’s why I suggested trying it out - easy to do and much more direct than me posting my brain farts

Cheers, Joe

mountainjoe said:

Well what fun would that be if we couldn’t promote wild speculation on an internet forum

All kidding aside, that’s why I suggested trying it out - easy to do and much more direct than me posting my brain farts

Cheers, Joe

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Speaking of all kidding aside....... Steve tells me you've had 4 (I think?) CS feet under your DAC (?) for a few days. I'm sure you haven't reached the 10-day mark, but would you like to be the first to make a short (albeit incomplete) comment on what the sonic trend is? .........or you can wait. No worries either way.

joelavrencik said:

Speaking of all kidding aside....... Steve tells me you've had 4 (I think?) CS feet under your DAC (?) for a few days. I'm sure you haven't reached the 10-day mark, but would you like to be the first to make a short (albeit incomplete) comment on what the sonic trend is? .........or you can wait. No worries either way.

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Hi Joe - btw, I'm the one who just spoke to you about your carrying your rack systems if you haven't made the connection yet

Regarding the CS footers, yes, I've had 4 of them under my PS Audio DirectStream DAC and I'm on day 4. I am hesitant to comment on what I'm hearing as my experience with them has been far from controlled - meaning I installed them under my DAC at the same time I installed a bunch of new PS Audio gear in my system including their BHK Signature preamp and a pair of their BHK 300 Signature series monoblocks.

All of this new gear is breaking in at the same time as the CS footers and both preamp and amp use tubes which will take some good number of hours to settle in (80-100hrs I'm expecting).

With those caveats, I can say that I've had the DAC for a long time as well as the speakers (VSA VR-55s).

Day 1 - the bass was really bad - I mean bloated, loose, very, very loose - to the point I thought there might be something physically wrong with my speakers or gear as my bass is usually taught, dynamic, and articulate. This was exactly the opposite of those characteristics - and did I mention it was very loose
Otherwise the sound wasn't too bad (if I could mentally subtract the bass) but hard to judge given the new gear breaking in.

Day 2 - didn't have much time to listen - mainly letting the system cook.

Day 3 - bass tightened up noticeably - still not where it should be by a long shot but at least not crapping all over the sound. Imaging and soundstage were improved significantly - in fact I noted this was the widest soundstage I have ever heard out of my DAC and rivaling that of my analog front end - which is saying a lot! Also the sound was very natural as in analog sounding - never thought I could get such an analog signature out of my DAC. That said, the sound was somewhat euphonic - as in rounded off - smoother than reality accompanied by a (or perhaps a repercussion of) diminishment of dynamics. Overall the sound was very immersive and involving but somewhat unsatisfying given the aforementioned euphonic signature.

Day 4 - had a quick listen this morning - bass continued to improve and the euphonic signature seems to be reduced but still hear it. Hopefully will have some time later tonight for more evaluation.

The new gear is for an event at my house this Saturday, after which I will be able to go back to my own equipment. I also have 8 more feet coming to put under my preamp and phono stage - that should get exciting ;-)

Given I am much more familiar with my own gear, I will be able to give better feedback at that time and will include the impact of the additional set of feet.

Cheers, Joe

Our timelines are matching up Steve. According to Joe my Maxxums should be ready for pick up in Illinois next week. Ultra 11s delayed as a second pair needs to be built and will join Big Blue in the same container.

Steve Williams said:

Hi Joe

As you and I chatted your concern about a valid test is truly a concern as your new gear is also breaking in. Having said however IMO the only way to truly know is to let the CS settle through day 14. Then play a few records that you know well. Then take the feet out and play the same songs again. I’ve said before that everyone who uses these should do an A-B-A test. That’s where readers will be most interested. I’ve done it 3 times now and TBH I can’t listen to my system without them because as good as I believe my system was before using these feet there is such a loss of presence and a feeling that I’m just not as close as where I was before.

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If that's the case, Why is the trial period only 14 days and if you return them within the 14 day trial period, you pay a 35% restocking fee?

Steve Williams said:

second set of Ultra 11's??

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Yup....don't worry. I'm not going multichannel LOL It's for a client.

mauidan said:

If that's the case, Why is the trial period only 14 days and if you return them within the 14 day trial period, you pay a 35% restocking fee?

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I’d like to try to explain why the return policy might make sense. MountainJoe describes some sonic anomalies that we all know have nothing to do with his new PS Audio gear. PS doesn’t bloat and it isn’t euphonic. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be a PS Audio. So, the anomalies must be coming from elsewhere; the feet.

This and other egregious occurrences are typical of the settling process, but they are short-lived in the larger scheme of things. Already, MJ is hearing something new and better happening. Typically, as our betas specified, as these nasties subside (and they will continue to do so), the good stuff gets better and better. The bottom line is he didn’t ask Steve to take them back, he ordered 8 more. And, please consider that MJ is not a Center Stage Dealer, because there is no such thing. There is only Pitch Perfect Sound.

I am suggesting that no matter how much your system degrades upon initial installation, and it will, in time the recovery is steady enough and predictable enough to let you know the direction in which the process will proceed. Your intelligence will inform your decision in 7 to 10 days. Maybe sooner as was the case here. ........make maybe a little sense?

Well, it could be part of the PS Audio burn in process too. The description is consistent with brand new 6922/6dj8s being fired up for their first hours of life. In my experience these tube types begin to normalize after the first 10 hours and are stable from about 50 hours of play onwards. I just burned in some NIB Siemens CCas and have done a whole lot with Lamm and LSA hybrid amps.

joelavrencik said:

I’d like to try to explain why the return policy might make sense. MountainJoe describes some sonic anomalies that we all know have nothing to do with his new PS Audio gear. PS doesn’t bloat and it isn’t euphonic. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be a PS Audio. So, the anomalies must be coming from elsewhere; the feet.

This and other egregious occurrences are typical of the settling process, but they are short-lived in the larger scheme of things. Already, MJ is hearing something new and better happening. Typically, as our betas specified, as these nasties subside (and they will continue to do so), the good stuff gets better and better. The bottom line is he didn’t ask Steve to take them back, he ordered 8 more. And, please consider that MJ is not a Center Stage Dealer, because there is no such thing. There is only Pitch Perfect Sound.

I am suggesting that no matter how much your system degrades upon initial installation, and it will, in time the recovery is steady enough and predictable enough to let you know the direction in which the process will proceed. Your intelligence will inform your decision in 7 to 10 days. Maybe sooner as was the case here. ........make maybe a little sense?

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Thank you Joe for this explanation. I appreciate your involvement in this thread and willingness to discuss the marketing and promotion of your product, so I will share some thoughts.

Despite your defense of the 7-10 day audition period and 14 day trial period, I still don't understand why a slightly longer trial period of 21-30 days does not make even more sense. Sometimes it is not about our intelligence but simply what we are hearing with the footers relative to what we heard without them versus the cost. The $1200 under each component can add up quickly if one has multiple power supplies and boxes. And you gave no defense of the 35% restocking fee. If people are not likely to return them, why not offer a 100% full refund. You have nothing to loose since no one is likely to return them and only goodwill to gain. 35% seems like a deterrent and some might decide to keep them rather than pay the $420 plus shipping cost per set to return them. As I wrote earlier, I would quickly turn around and try to resell them on Audiogon or WBF rather than return them and lose all that money. I would think that seeing a few sets for sale on Audiogon would raise more questions than the hassle and nominal loss of having to fund the restocking yourselves.

Peter, you've illustrated that point pretty well.
I'm probably more opinionated on it than you.
One of the main gists of the thread is just how poor the initial experience is over the first few days, so far behind a user's status quo and presumably well behind what is the potential positive upside.
As we approach 10 days, the drift seems to be that things may still not be settled in, and this is the time to have to decide to stick or twist, keep or return, in order to comply with the refund policy.
The 35% restocking fee is enough to put me off, I consider it wholly unreasonable, and since the footers may only be singing properly into the third week, I consider the trial only practical if it goes to 4 weeks.
For these reasons, and these reasons alone, I'm minded to pass.

PeterA said:

Thank you Joe for this explanation. I appreciate your involvement in this thread and willingness to discuss the marketing and promotion of your product, so I will share some thoughts.

Despite your defense of the 7-10 day audition period and 14 day trial period, I still don't understand why a slightly longer trial period of 21-30 days does not make even more sense. Sometimes it is not about our intelligence but simply what we are hearing with the footers relative to what we heard without them versus the cost. The $1200 under each component can add up quickly if one has multiple power supplies and boxes. And you gave no defense of the 35% restocking fee. If people are not likely to return them, why not offer a 100% full refund. You have nothing to loose since no one is likely to return them and only goodwill to gain. 35% seems like a deterrent and some might decide to keep them rather than pay the $420 plus shipping cost per set to return them. As I wrote earlier, I would quickly turn around and try to resell them on Audiogon or WBF rather than return them and lose all that money. I would think that seeing a few sets for sale on Audiogon would raise more questions than the hassle and nominal loss of having to fund the restocking yourselves.

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You and spirit make good points. I'm okay with extending to 30 days. It's up to Steve, though, he's the boss. I just clean the floors back in the shop.......

That's a good decision Joel. You're due a promotion .

joelavrencik said:

You and spirit make good points. I'm okay with extending to 30 days. It's up to Steve, though, he's the boss. I just clean the floors back in the shop.......

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I hope you cleaned the debris from my order ...

JackD201 said:

Well, it could be part of the PS Audio burn in process too. The description is consistent with brand new 6922/6dj8s being fired up for their first hours of life. In my experience these tube types begin to normalize after the first 10 hours and are stable from about 50 hours of play onwards. I just burned in some NIB Siemens CCas and have done a whole lot with Lamm and LSA hybrid amps.

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This tube burn-in can be measured and is easily explained - the cathode surface has micro-irregularities and whiskers that create higher electrical fields and emit electrons (noise). During burn-in, due to cathode evaporation, these defects get polished and disappear.

This shows in the spectrometer mostly as very low frequency noise that is not directly heard. Many times tubes that initially seem noisy become perfect - but a few became even noisier as sometime new defects develop.

microstrip said:

This tube burn-in can be measured and is easily explained - the cathode surface has micro-irregularities and whiskers that create higher electrical fields and emit electrons (noise). During burn-in, due to cathode evaporation, these defects get polished and disappear.

This shows in the spectrometer mostly as very low frequency noise that is not directly heard. Many times tubes that initially seem noisy become perfect - but a few became even noisier as sometime new defects develop.

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Awesome explanation. Always good to learn these things. By the way I checked out photo bucket, OMG. Bank Robbery!