Harmonic Resolution Systems VXR Stand

Ron Resnick

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Having read the comments here, I'm not sure you guys are looking at this in the clearest way possible. For several reasons:

1. As you may know, there are 3 primary methodologies to addressing vibrations. Isolation (de-coupling), mechanical energy transfer (coupling), and hybrids of the two. For example, de-coupling and coupling are diametrically opposed to one another. Yet, in each of the racks pictured herein I can see a combination of both so I would consider each of these pictured racks as hybrids favoring one primary method or the other. And if they are hybrids of any sort, why would the designer intermix the 2 methods and was there a conscious decision to make certain portions lean toward de-coupling and others lean toward coupling? Or was it mere happenstance?

2. I suspect you are not viewing things from a holistic or final perspective. For example, let's say one has purchased the absolute best performing rack in the world - bar none. Obviously, that rack is adhering to one of the three methods. Yet, what is inserted or sandwiched between the components' baseplates and the shelve's surfaces could just as easily turn that rack into the world's worst performing racking system. Hence, the chosen footers design methodology and subsequent performance is perhaps equally important as the chosen racking system.

3. Chosen materials. If a racking system's design truly follows the manufacturer's stated vibration controlling method, do the rack's materials and joinery follow suit? In other words, if a rack manufacturer is committed to one vibration controlling methodology do the rack's materials and joinery substantiate the chosen method or do they seem contradictory and defeating? Materials matter because obviously some material makes for better mechanical energy conduit than others. The hard and more rigid the material, the greater the opportunity for mechanical energy to travel. The softer and less rigid the material, the greater the opportunity to disconnect or severe the conduit and thus keep the energy from traveling.

4. As you may also know, there are 3 primary sources of mechanical vibration; floor-borne, air-borne, and internally-generated (e.g. motors, power supplies, electrical current, etc). The question that deserves a correct answer is, which of these vibration sources are you convinced are the most harmful? This is critical because if you're convinced that one source is more deleterious than the others, you cannot satisfactorily address both. For example. If you've determined that floor-borne vibrations are the most destructive vibrations and address matters accordingly, then you've instantly trapped all air-borne and internally-generated vibrations inside the component and thereby will release its full energy within. On the other hand, if you've determined that air-borne and/or internally-generated vibrations are the most destructive and act accordingly, then the potential exists for floor-borne vibrations to travel upward to the component as air-borne and/internally-generated vibrations are traveling downward.

5. IMO, one of the most important questions worth asking is, does mechanical energy (or for that matter any energy) by nature travel or remain stationary? The significance of this question/answer determines everything, i.e. chosen vibration-controlling method, design, execution, materials, types of joinery, suggested footers, etc.

6. Though active vibration control is mentioned, I suspect the technology hasn't matured all that much otherwise we'd be hearing far more about it and many more of us would be using it. Besides, since the problem is mechanical in nature, it seems to me that a proper mechanical solution should suffice.

Among the 3 racks pictured, I'm not overly impressed with any of them since they all seem to clearly be hybrids of the de-coupling and coupling methodologies. And as such I suspect all 3 racking systems have significant built-in performance compromises. If you've ever heard of a mug-whomp, that is what I see with these 3 racks from these pictures alone. A mug-whomp is where somebody's mug is on one side of the fence and their whomp is on the other side of the fence. IOW, indecisive.

That said, and assuming we're not all in agreement with the points mentioned above, from my perspective I'd lean toward the HRS as potentially edging out a bit better performance with Mike Lavigne's pictured rack being the worst performer of the 3. From an aesthetics-only perspective, to me the infinite element rack is superior as it has the appearance of a sophisticated/thoughtful piece of furniture with a nice contract of man-made and natural materials.



Except for the scepticism about active isolation platforms, I think this essay raises some very interesting and seemingly valid points. It seems as though both CMS and HRS use extremely sturdy, heavy, frame structures, yet also utilize some vibration absorbing techniques in the shelves.
 

Mike Lavigne

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I think we get caught up in 'gear crush' when we look at gear racks. elegance is a strong motivator. some of these racks can get so expensive since they have to look like furniture. it takes lots of secret sauce to get this big massive rack system to overcome all it's resonance. same with those big massive shelves. those are negatives.....and the cost is from fixing the inherent penalty of all that mass.

the Artesania Racks make no pretense of being furniture. your wife will likely hate it. industrial as hell. but there are no shelves. no friggen shelves. the gear just hangs on tunable dampers.

love to place bets on which rack would actually sound the best.

you have to understand exactly how stuff works. less is more.

even the footers on your gear presents problems for all those other racks. the Artesania eliminates that footer issue.
 
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cyclopse

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I have never tried their stands but did try a number of their isolation footers in comparison with Stillpoints. Much preferred the latter as the HRS gave a dark sound lacking in life.

I had similar findings with the Nimbus footers. They emphasise the bass and treble is suppressed. A dark sound is a good description. My Vitus prefers Stillpoints.
 

Ron Resnick

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I had similar findings with the Nimbus footers. They emphasise the bass and treble is suppressed. A dark sound is a good description. My Vitus prefers Stillpoints.

Forgive me, but doesn't this mistake the change in sound of the component due to the way the footer affects the component's perception of or reaction to vibration or resonance, rather than reflect some inherent sonic characteristic of the footer itself?
 

spiritofmusic

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Can the proponents of lab grade active isoln explain one thing to me?
They're designed to isolate microscopes and the like from external forces, obv thus good for tts too
But I don't see anything in active isoln that does anything for component-borne vibrations, obv much of this is created by a tt w spinning platter, moving arm, undulating lp etc
However all the top hifi racks use design criteria to deal w these
W lack of isolation for noise created by the tt itself, surely active isolation platforms like Herzan, Accurion/Halcyonics, Spiers And Robertson etc are only addressing part of the problem?
 

rockitman

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MikeL makes an excellent observation. For the price of a Maxxum or a VXR one could buy inexpensive racks and a Herzan for every component. I have thought of that too.

The TS140 aka Herzan will not work on every cheap rack. If there is lateral movement/sway when you push on the rack, the Herzan may not work properly.
 

microstrip

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(...) you have to understand exactly how stuff works. less is more. (...)

First we would have to understand how our own equipment deals with all types of vibrations. Then we could probably consider the racks. Unfortunately very little is known on this subject, and what is known is too particular to be generally applied. IMHO the audiophile rack affair must be carried in an empirical basis. As we are not able to carry half-a-dozen of racks to try at home for a few weeks, we usually do it on word of mouth of people with experience we trust.
 

DaveyF

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One thing that is consistently missing from all of these conversations and threads about isolation and the racks that we use to support gear is---

and I believe this is the most important aspect of the whole issue--


WHAT IS THE SUPPORT STANDING ON!!


Because if you are using your stand on a sub floor, or over a multitude of other surfaces...tile, wood, carpet etc., then the effect will be different based on the isolation device and its engineering.

I totally believe that a support that is on a solid concrete slab floor with nothing below it ( i.e. ground level) will behave completely differently than one that is on a suspended floor with joists or ? beneath it. Floor flex for one comes into play here ( and do not think that
you can build a system that is on a second floor or crawl space that doesn't elicit some kind of flex...however small).
 

spiritofmusic

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Hmm, there is an alternative to these v high priced options
Symposium Acoustics, using what I'm finding to be a winning combination of materials (aircraft-grade Al, sound damping foam), constrained-layer construction, Rollerblock isolation, and fully modular
Prob half the price of these more uber priced alternatives
I run a 3 tier Isis rack w Rollerblock Modules isolation at each tier, 2 monoblocks Ampstands, and am looking to complete affairs w a Quantum Signature platform on current top tier to isolate tt, and Rollerblocks Series 2 to isolate other components
Tt, cdp, linestage and monoblocks to be fully dealt with for c$12-15k
And Peter who runs Symposium is a total delight to deal with, friendly and informative in equal measure, one of the good guys
 

Barry2013

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Forgive me, but doesn't this mistake the change in sound of the component due to the way the footer affects the component's perception of or reaction to vibration or resonance, rather than reflect some inherent sonic characteristic of the footer itself?

Who knows Ron and is it relevant?
The HRS footers changed the sound for the worse in my system and cyclopse had the same results. We both have Vitus SIA 025s so it is significant that we both had the same results. It is a heavy amp and I suppose it is possible that that may be a factor but when I recounted my experience to an experienced distributor he confirmed that the results were not unusual.
In my experience there is often a family sound to different products from the same manufacturer so compare and try before you buy would be my recommendation
 

Mike Lavigne

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Can the proponents of lab grade active isoln explain one thing to me?
They're designed to isolate microscopes and the like from external forces, obv thus good for tts too
But I don't see anything in active isoln that does anything for component-borne vibrations, obv much of this is created by a tt w spinning platter, moving arm, undulating lp etc
However all the top hifi racks use design criteria to deal w these
W lack of isolation for noise created by the tt itself, surely active isolation platforms like Herzan, Accurion/Halcyonics, Spiers And Robertson etc are only addressing part of the problem?

passive shelves/passive racks have no more effect on component borne vibrations than active systems. active systems sense any type of resonance and dampen it. passive systems must be tuned to dampen particular resonances ahead of time. they are not agile to adjust to just any resonance. and active is effective over a very wide range of weight variance. whereas passive is essentially a spring and tuned to a more limited weight range.

so I'm not sure what exactly you are asking.
 

DaveyF

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Who knows Ron and is it relevant?
The HRS footers changed the sound for the worse in my system and cyclopse had the same results. We both have Vitus SIA 025s so it is significant that we both had the same results. It is a heavy amp and I suppose it is possible that that may be a factor but when I recounted my experience to an experienced distributor he confirmed that the results were not unusual.
In my experience there is often a family sound to different products from the same manufacturer so compare and try before you buy would be my recommendation

+1

It has been my experience also that sometimes a certain tweek or other mod has proven to be detrimental. The other day, I changed out my stock spikes on my amp stand for a different type of footer. My tube amp is not that heavy, but does benefit from good isolation. However, the stock spikes on my amp stand definitely sounded better than my stand with the footers. The answer lies, I believe, in the ability of the spike to pierce my carpet and to connect/stand rigidly on my slab floor. The footer was unable to connect directly to the slab...resulting in a very slight loss of resolution and 'focus'. Like you said, always best to try before you buy.
 

bonzo75

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MikeL makes an excellent observation. For the price of a Maxxum or a VXR one could buy inexpensive racks and a Herzan for every component. I have thought of that too.

This is what I told you too. To keep the racks cheap, and add Herzan on them. Since I am not in the Herzan budget, keep the racks cheap, and add mooks. Better than SRA, stillpoints, symposium, HRS footers, and finite elemente. I would suggest trying Dalby footers too.
 

rockitman

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This is what I told you too. To keep the racks cheap, and add Herzan on them. Since I am not in the Herzan budget, keep the racks cheap, and add mooks. Better than SRA, stillpoints, symposium, HRS footers, and finite elemente. I would suggest trying Dalby footers too.

Herzan makes completely rigid and damped racks for less than budget audiophile offerings and they are custom made to order. The active isolation will not work on flimsy (lateral/horizontal) racks. If you can push on it and it sways a bit, it may not work. The Herzan applies an equal and opposite force to incoming vibration. The unit literally pushes off it's support rack to achieve this. If it's not rigid, the active isolation goes into a feedback loop. I have experienced this first hand with a budget audiophile rack...Adona.
 

bonzo75

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Herzan makes completely rigid and damped racks for less than budget audiophile offerings and they are custom made to order. The active isolation will not work on flimsy (lateral/horizontal) racks. If you can push on it and it sways a bit, it may not work. The Herzan applies an equal and opposite force to incoming vibration. The unit literally pushes off it's support rack to achieve this. If it's not rigid, the active isolation goes into a feedback loop. I have experienced this first hand with a budget audiophile rack...Adona.


Thanks that's good feedback
 

Mike Lavigne

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Thanks that's good feedback

I know Christian had those issues with his Adona, for whatever reason I've had no similar issues with my Adona. I did see his massive (and not spendy) Herzan support table he acquired and assume it would make it things even better. so lots to think about in terms of choices. this stuff is rarely plug and play.
 

spiritofmusic

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Ked, you need to be more careful when making blanket statements, Mooks do not automatically beat Symposium in all situations
In London, Mooks were King under my cdp, beat Symposium and you heard my sound and agreed they were superior, even w the Giants maybe not being optimal under the cdp specifically
Here, the situation is reversed, and they fail to help
Every situation in audio is system dependent
 

bonzo75

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Ked, you need to be more careful when making blanket statements, Mooks do not automatically beat Symposium in all situations
In London, Mooks were King under my cdp, beat Symposium and you heard my sound and agreed they were superior, even w the Giants maybe not being optimal under the cdp specifically
Here, the situation is reversed, and they fail to help
Every situation in audio is system dependent

I don't make blanket statements, Marc, you do, not demoing anything anywhere. If every system is system dependent, there is no point discussing. I have compared with symposium in other systems as well as my Lampi distributor/dealer used to sell them.

On the subject, I would suggest that before making blanket statements, next time carry some of your own recordings to demos...whether to private individuals or to hifi shows...actually swap and compare...
 

Barry2013

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I do think one must be very careful, as you have noted. If you ever get a chance to try HRS nimbus couplers ON TOP of your U5s, do let me know what you think. I respect your comments and observation so would be interested to get your comments.

Thanks Lloyd.
Mmmmmmm.............................
I'm inclined to think the money would be better spent on other system improvements but will bear it in mind.
 

spiritofmusic

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Mooks better than all the other products you mentioned, that's a blanket statement by definition
Saying you find them to work in lots of situations, but YMMV would be a lot more accurate
And you know what a fanboy I was when I heard the Giants under my cdp back in London, so much so I bought the set from you
So, imagine my reaction when they really didn't work here
I'd say that's the very definition of system dependent
Btw, I do take my music to many demos, eg the Apogee Divas I heard a few days ago
Just didn't fancy lugging my lps to Munich
And as you know I took music to Bill's where I settled in my mind my preference for T&A Dac8 w SGM server over the GG
 

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