Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong

morricab · Dec 5, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Exactly. I like valves, but the best systems I have heard are SS. However I have heard more no. of good valve systems as opposed to good SS systems. I think what happens is, when one has the room, the dynamics and bass of SS can be combined with the tone and decay provided by the room. Also, the transparency of SS can allow the cartridge + recording to flow through with high tone. The good SS amps are expensive though.

When one has a smaller room and budget, valves provide a better decay, body, and tone that cheaper SS cannot. In a compromised system, I find valves and small speakers more musical.

Unfortunately people on the forum get carried away with trying to push their preference over being open minded.

I have yet to hear a SS system that can touch the best tube based systems...and I have heard most of the stuff at the top of the food chain. Bass and macrodynamics I can concede to one degree or another (although most SS amps sound overdamped and lacking bass texture and decay) but microdynamics and the breath of life I will not concede to any SS amps I have heard so far. Tone from a room? Decay, sure, tone? The Aries Cerat and latest Ayon offerings are more transparent in an openly natural way than any of the top SS I have heard...same for the best OTLs, although they are actually more limited I think. SS has a kind of fake transparency that still doesn't allow things to sound REAL. Everything is there (or so it seems)...except real. Its kind of like 4K resolution on a Samsung or LG LED TV. It looks unnaturally sharp and, well, synthetic.

What one can hear with the Living Voice/Kondo set up is not like that. It doesn't tick hifi boxes about bass, slam, transparency etc. it simply sounds more real with simply less synthetic nature. It may not be totally devoid of artifice but it is far closer than anything else I have heard.

The cartridge, I have found, is less important than the phono preamplifier. I get better analog sound with my superb Silvaweld phonostage and a $400 Audio Technica than a friend of mine with a $6000 Transfiguration Proteus and a $1000 SS phonostage. Its not even close really. Now, would I get better sound with the Proteus with my phonostage (assuming that the gain was sufficient...which it isn't)? Almost certainly but not to the night and day degree that the phonostage makes. I think it is likely more important than the TT itself!

Ok SS amps are expensive. Surprisingly, one of the best sounding ones is not so expensive. I am talking about the Nagra Classic Amp. Also, the Brinkmann monos are very good. Both of these would be a reasonable choice if your speakers were in the mid 80s db and not too tough a load. Once you get above 90db/watt then you are in high power SET world and you can forget the SS unless your room is huge or your tastes run to AC/DC at 130db. Hybrids from Ypsilon would be a reasonable alternative if one doesn't want to go SET.

You can treat the hell out of a room but you cannot remove electronic signature with it.

Your opinion is as strong on this forum as anyone else's...just a FYI...

morricab · Dec 5, 2016

jeffrey_t said:
Agree with you 100%. I have a new recording of Bruckner's 9th on DG that I think is really well recorded. I bought it on vinyl.

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-Claudio-Abbado/dp/B00KJ2024S

I like the sound of a lot of DG recordings, however, one should be aware that they are not a result of natural recording techniques.

morricab · Dec 5, 2016

Believe High Fidelity said:
This...

And this....

No truer words ever spoken. While I like many dynamic loudspeakers I would never want to recommend one as an end-of-the-road to someone looking for the real life experience of the event.

The bite and sheer fluidity of the music in real life vs reproduced is something I have only ever heard on a horn. Can't go back....

That is the way I hear it. I could go back to large electrostats as that could also deliver a really engaging sound.

morricab · Dec 5, 2016

ack said:
I wouldn't generalize about solid state as you have. For one, I can also attest to the presence that PeterA's system can render.

Well, I have lived with and heard enough of the best SS that is on offer to make my statements...you are free to disagree. When you compare to what one hears live it becomes pretty clear to me at least.

morricab · Dec 5, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Exactly. I like valves, but the best systems I have heard are SS. However I have heard more no. of good valve systems as opposed to good SS systems. I think what happens is, when one has the room, the dynamics and bass of SS can be combined with the tone and decay provided by the room. Also, the transparency of SS can allow the cartridge + recording to flow through with high tone. The good SS amps are expensive though.

When one has a smaller room and budget, valves provide a better decay, body, and tone that cheaper SS cannot. In a compromised system, I find valves and small speakers more musical.

Unfortunately people on the forum get carried away with trying to push their preference over being open minded.

Would also like to point out that the room the concert was in was not treated in any way...nor did it have any soft furniture. It was stark and modern, with hard floors, walls and ceilings. And yet, the sound was rich powerful with easy clarity and no issues with "imaging" . The room can never keep you from realizing that something is live or make it sound more live.

microstrip · Dec 5, 2016

bonzo75 said:
(...) The good SS amps are expensive though. (...)

Ked,
What amps are you referring to in this comment, other than the Dartzeel NH458?

bonzo75 · Dec 5, 2016

microstrip said:
Ked,
What amps are you referring to in this comment, other than the Dartzeel NH458?

Vitus, Boulder. I would also use Dag. Many combos to drive the Apogee, all preferred over a valve. I have never really compared Dart to anything

bonzo75 · Dec 5, 2016

morricab said:
Would also like to point out that the room the concert was in was not treated in any way...nor did it have any soft furniture. It was stark and modern, with hard floors, walls and ceilings. And yet, the sound was rich powerful with easy clarity and no issues with "imaging" . The room can never keep you from realizing that something is live or make it sound more live.

Brad, I have been to 40 concerts this year. I have heard the Elgar cello concerto twice in two different halls this year, some Bach cello, my favorite cello piece was the vivaldi double cello I heard at St Martin's.

I have not said I will not have a SET if I don't have a horn.

The fact that a SET and small horns can reproduce a cello is a joke. The bass in these horns is so compromised.

My opinion might be strong, but it's not stubborn. SETs can be excellent but they are highly limited

Regarding the TT and cart, I should have used the word analog set up. As for the Silvaweld, a person here with the Kronos pro replaced.The Allnic 3000 with a locally made LCR that cost 1500.

As for the Ayon, I own the Orthos XS 150 which is with Justin because I wanted to try it on the Apogee. I bought it because I can't afford a Vitus or Boulder.

microstrip · Dec 5, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Vitus, Boulder. I would also use Dag. Many combos to drive the Apogee, all preferred over a valve. I have never really compared Dart to anything

Did your comment address amplifiers specifically driving Apogees?

bonzo75 · Dec 5, 2016

microstrip said:
Did your comment address amplifiers specifically driving Apogees?

My comment addresses that it's a speaker amp combo, while Brad always believes that it is the SET

Al M. · Dec 5, 2016

morricab said:
I have yet to hear a SS system that can touch the best tube based systems...and I have heard most of the stuff at the top of the food chain. Bass and macrodynamics I can concede to one degree or another (although most SS amps sound overdamped and lacking bass texture and decay) but microdynamics and the breath of life I will not concede to any SS amps I have heard so far.

Wrong. I used to think that too, but not anymore. My very first post at WBF three years ago was about my surprise how well the Spectral pre-power amp combo that I had been auditioning in my system can reproduce micro-dynamics. It was just as lively as my low-watt triode push-pull tube amps (and I haven't heard SET amps that are more lively than those). There were slight electronic artifacts of timbre from the Spectral combo, but in the meantime I have heard Spectral amps that are better.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 5, 2016

bonzo75 said:
The best cello I heard was on Mike's system.

Not only the bass, but also the range of notes, and the low to high, dynamic range, the intervals. While I do agree a SET can in most cases produce tone better, many horns especially smaller ones, because of the mishmash of drivers and crossovers, can struggle to do cello

bonzo75 said:
Exactly. I like valves, but the best systems I have heard are SS. However I have heard more no. of good valve systems as opposed to good SS systems. I think what happens is, when one has the room, the dynamics and bass of SS can be combined with the tone and decay provided by the room. Also, the transparency of SS can allow the cartridge + recording to flow through with high tone. The good SS amps are expensive though.

When one has a smaller room and budget, valves provide a better decay, body, and tone that cheaper SS cannot. In a compromised system, I find valves and small speakers more musical.

Unfortunately people on the forum get carried away with trying to push their preference over being open minded.

I agree with Bonzo. (big surprise, right?

)

it's about what happens when you eliminate gear limitations......particularly speaker limitations in the mid bass and lower mids. what Bonzo hears in my system is what is on the record. but not every speaker system can give you the linearity and dynamic life in that frequency region. then there is the combination of the speaker efficiency, the 458's power and it's delicious 1st watt.

tubes 'can' do this on some level due to their character (not a bad thing), but when all the variables line up, solid state takes this level, and adds much more texture and sense of presence.....it projects much more musical power (has more headroom, lower noise, is more linear under load). of course, the room, power grid, vinyl front end, etc. etc. all have to be up to the task.

solid state has a higher ceiling, but also requires more to get into that magic zone.

ultimately to get Ray Brown's double bass to suddenly appear in your room stage left it also helps to have Herzan active isolation under your turntable. when I did that all the feedback vanished. if your system has the headroom to do the job, this super hot DTD pressing feedback might hold it back.

note; I added the second picture of the pressing because I noticed the first pic I posted was for the re-issue (a tape was made from playing the original pressing and then this was mastered from that tape) and not for the original direct to disc pressing and I would not want someone to pursue the wrong pressing.

KeithR · Dec 5, 2016

well, quite simply music isn't just about playing a cello

my guess is everybody hears a cello differently, too.

bonzo75 · Dec 5, 2016

KeithR said:
well, quite simply music isn't just about playing a cello.

Lol that too.

ack · Dec 5, 2016

Al M. said:
Wrong. I used to think that too, but not anymore. My very first post at WBF three years ago was about my surprise how well the Spectral pre-power amp combo that I had been auditioning in my system can reproduce micro-dynamics. It was just as lively as my low-watt triode push-pull tube amps (and I haven't heard SET amps that are more lively than those). There were slight electronic artifacts of timbre from the Spectral combo, but in the meantime I have heard Spectral amps that are better.

I would agree and emphasize, and morricab probably has not heard top solid state, but he also referred to only the solid state he's heard. So I would advise morricab to listen to top solid state, and be pleasantly surprised at the level of micro-dynamics rendered. It can, in fact, be arresting.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 5, 2016

KeithR said:
well, quite simply music isn't just about playing a cello

my guess is everybody hears a cello differently, too.

agree. but the same attributes that get the job done with a cello (actually a double bass on the recording Bonzo referenced) also succeed similarly on big boy rock, large orchestral, piano, string quartets, and vocals.

Kingsrule · Dec 5, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
I agree with Bonzo. (big surprise, right?)

it's about what happens when you eliminate gear limitations......particularly speaker limitations in the mid bass and lower mids. what Bonzo hears in my system is what is on the record. but not every speaker system can give you the linearity and dynamic life in that frequency region. then there is the combination of the speaker efficiency, the 458's power and it's delicious 1st watt.

tubes 'can' do this on some level due to their character (not a bad thing), but when all the variables line up, solid state takes this level, and adds much more texture and sense of presence.....it projects much more musical power (has more headroom, lower noise, is more linear under load). of course, the room, power grid, vinyl front end, etc. etc. all have to be up to the task.

solid state has a higher ceiling, but also requires more to get into that magic zone.

ultimately to get Ray Brown's double bass to suddenly appear in your room stage left it also helps to have Herzan active isolation under your turntable. when I did that all the feedback vanished. if your system has the headroom to do the job, this super hot DTD pressing feedback might hold it back.

View attachment 30066

note; I added the second picture of the pressing because I noticed the first pic I posted was for the re-issue (a tape was made from playing the original pressing and then this was mastered from that tape) and not for the original direct to disc pressing and I would not want someone to pursue the wrong pressing.

Which track are u talking about on MoonLight?
In my system its stage right.....

bonzo75 · Dec 5, 2016

Mike, I was possibly referring to this, but that one too

morricab · Dec 5, 2016

ack said:
I would agree and emphasize, and morricab probably has not heard top solid state, but he also referred to only the solid state he's heard. So I would advise morricab to listen to top solid state, and be pleasantly surprised at the level of micro-dynamics rendered. It can, in fact, be arresting.

LOL, you are not serious. I live in the land of top solid state (darTZeel, CH Precision, Soulution, Nagra, FM Acoustics). I have heard them all in shows, showrooms, homes etc. Ironically, the new Nagra Classic is one of the better sounding ones.

Not to mention too German ones like MBL, Audionet, T+A, Bumester, etc.

Every year at shows, dealers and private I hear this stuff and it never sounds beyond hifi. I am sadly never pleasantly surprised with this unnatural sound. This year I heard the Magico Q1 with the new 500 series Integrated from Soulution ( an ironic name if ever I heard one). My friend rightly pegged the bass as sounding like someone banging on an empty shoebox! So lacking in tone color, microdynamics and an hugely overdamped bass. Poor.

Now, much better sounding was a pair of Vandersteen Treos driven by an all Brinkmann system. Cheaper too.

I guess you could say I already did as advised and what you get ticks all the boxes except music. As I said this latest live event just reinforced that thought.

bonzo75 · Dec 5, 2016

morricab said:
LOL, you are not serious. I live in the land of top solid state (darTZeel, CH Precision, Soulution, Nagra, FM Acoustics). I have heard them all in shows, showrooms, homes etc. Ironically, the new Nagra Classic is one of the better sounding ones.

Not to mention too German ones like MBL, Audionet, T+A, Bumester, etc.

Every year at shows, dealers and private I hear this stuff and it never sounds beyond hifi. I am sadly never pleasantly surprised with this unnatural sound. This year I heard the Magico Q1 with the new 500 series Integrated from Soulution ( an ironic name if ever I heard one). My friend rightly pegged the bass as sounding like someone banging on an empty shoebox! So lacking in tone color, microdynamics and an hugely overdamped bass. Poor.

Now, much better sounding was a pair of Vandersteen Treos driven by an all Brinkmann system. Cheaper too.

I guess you could say I already did as advised and what you get ticks all the boxes except music. As I said this latest live event just reinforced that thought.

Problem is listening to much at shows. I have heard the Trios driven by Nat Transmitters. They are ok.

Btw, Dato Danon Han or however his name is spelt, has had the NATs and prefers Vitus much more. There is a statement from Greg Baron on one of the forums where his client replaced top of the line NAT with Dartzeel, and he and his client both preferred the Darts much more. I though the Vitus was as good as the Kondo Kagura and the M1000mkII on the Magico S7, though it can be argued that maybe because it was the Magico. All I am saying is, your dismissiveness of SS is incorrect. Yes, there are lot of SS amps sounding hifi and unnatural, just like there are a lot of valves sounding mushy and rolled off and too sweet.

And any of those fake sounding SS amps with high current into a good Apogee will beat the backsides of a SET into a toy horn.

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