Measurement Thread: Measured Effect of Speaker Isolators

amirm · Feb 9, 2016

Gregadd said:
Subjective means without proof.

No it doesn't mean that. All blind listening tests are subjective. Simple reason is that well, they including subjects, i.e. listeners. Blind listening tests have their data to back their "proof" so that is not what makes them objective. They remain subjective.

Subjective as a term used in forums means uncontrolled evaluation of audio. As such, it cannot by standards of scientific and engineering of audio to have proof of their conclusions. Those are the rules we are operating under in this subforum.

spazmatron · Feb 9, 2016

Gregadd said:
Subjective means without proof. I have plenty of proof.
A separate thread might have been appropriate but that would invite even more piling on. That was not my intent.

Oh your Omnipotent

Gregadd · Feb 9, 2016

I understand the the dual meanings of subjective. I looked it up. I am sure I responded appropriately.

Purite Audio · Feb 9, 2016

Stereoeditor said:
It' s documented on the Stereophile website. Ethan refused to conform to our posting rules, specifically our request that industry posters include their affiliation. Doesn't mean that we don't still recommend his RealTraps products or that Ethan and I don't have a cordial relationship.

On the subject at head, you can find my measurements on the effect of various couplings between a loudspeaker and its stand at http://www.stereophile.com/features/806/index.html . The differences on a cabinet's vibrational behavior can be extreme but it is very difficult to predict what the effect on the speaker's sound quality will be.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

John Hi, thanks for responding, I very much enjoy your work too .
BW Keith.

dallasjustice · Feb 9, 2016

Purite Audio said:
John Hi, thanks for responding, I very much enjoy your work too .
BW Keith.

ass kisser

Purite Audio · Feb 9, 2016

dallasjustice said:
ass kisser

I enjoy your work too! ( and plan to copy it in my system)
BW Keith.

dallasjustice · Feb 9, 2016

Purite Audio said:
I enjoy your work too! ( and plan to copy it in my system)
BW Keith.

I was just teasing Keith. I do think JA is greatness too.

If you copy me and don't like it, don't blame me. I don't have a real system. My system is really a virtual reality mock-up based on finite element analysis and fluid dynamics computer simulations done by graduate physics students at Stanford University.

NorthStar · Feb 9, 2016

Stereoeditor said:
It' s documented on the Stereophile website. Ethan refused to conform to our posting rules, specifically our request that industry posters include their affiliation. Doesn't mean that we don't still recommend his RealTraps products or that Ethan and I don't have a cordial relationship.

On the subject at head, you can find my measurements on the effect of various couplings between a loudspeaker and its stand at http://www.stereophile.com/features/806/index.html . The differences on a cabinet's vibrational behavior can be extreme but it is very difficult to predict what the effect on the speaker's sound quality will be.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Hi John,

We all know that Ethan is a musician, writer, acoustician, audio explorer, entrepreneur, magician, good humor guy, ...brief a lovely soul who loves cats. :b
We ain't no need of no one telling us what we already all know. ...His affiliations and all that jazz...don't be so much bundle up in your pantyhose rules.

Once a very popular audio reviewer/writer thought that I was affiliated to some audiophile hi-end company and that I had to divulge.
But I had nothing, no affiliation with none and whatsoever.

But because his voice was above mine, and his influence on others quite influential...I was discredited of my non-credits.

Ethan is a regular guy, like you. We grew up with both of you...and Kal...and Gordon...and Harry.
You guys are the example leaders...lead with majesty and calculated well balanced common sense intelligence and verve.

Cheers,

Gregadd · Feb 9, 2016

You left out consumer advocate.

RBFC · Feb 9, 2016

Gentlemen, may we please return the discussion to speakers and isolation?

Lee

Ethan Winer · Feb 9, 2016

Gregadd said:
One could argue Ethans' initial presence on this forum (which I opposed ) was one of many second chances he has received.

This will be my only comment about Ethan being banned or un-banned:

Why is it so important to some people that opposing positions be censored and prevented from reaching anyone, including people who might want to hear those positions? I object to lots of things I read and see on TV, such as the opinion shows on Fox News that I believe do real damage to our country. But never in a million years would I suggest that Fox doesn't have a right to speak or be heard. If I don't like it I can change the channel! So why does anyone object to me saying stuff even if they disagree vehemently?

This is a serious question and I'd really love to know the answer.

--Ethan

thedudeabides · Feb 9, 2016

Ethan Winer said:
Perhaps I'm not the only person who should be limited?--Ethan

A very good example of his antagonistic, passive / aggressive attitude that caused much angst amongst members in the past. And on his very first post.

Some things never change.

PS: I just saw EW's post above. It's not necessarily what he says but the way he says it. And I have not read any of the other posts on this thread before I posted this.

Ethan Winer · Feb 9, 2016

dallasjustice said:
I agree that a recoil stabilizer's claimed improvement might be impossible to hear if the MLP was 9'. But many folks are listening way closer than that. I could see how a close listener hearing an actually better impulse would be very audible to the listener.

Ah, I totally missed your point! I thought you meant you wanted me to measure from even farther away, in order for REW to pick up more of the room or some such. The first test I did was about 15 inches away, and I still have that data if you care to see it. But as I mentioned in my article, being that close made it even more difficult to repeat the speaker placements for each device. And small differences made even more change in the measured response. So the response varies 2-3 dB instead of only 1-2 dB. I'm pretty confident that all changes in that first tests were due entirely to placement because the waterfalls show no difference in decay times. But I accept that my tests aren't perfect, and I hope they'll encourage others to do more tests. That's how science works! And I'm glad to see hard data showing a situation where isolation really does make a difference in case I missed something.

--Ethan

Al M. · Feb 9, 2016

thedudeabides said:
A very good example of his antagonistic, passive / aggressive attitude that caused much angst amongst members in the past. And on his very first post.

Some things never change.

Boy, are you sensitive. And in its entirety (not just taking the one sentence that you selectively quoted) I found Ethan's remark just fine:

Ethan Winer said:
Thanks Amir. I think limiting people (me) to certain forums is a good one. Perhaps I'm not the only person who should be limited?

--Ethan

Welcome back, Ethan!

thedudeabides · Feb 9, 2016

Al,

With all due respect, it was / isn't just me. Many folks got tired of his mantra / condescending attitude and complained to the mods. That's why he was banned.

And his little one liner / zinger I quoted above is a perfect example.

The simple truth. No more, no less.

DonH50 · Feb 9, 2016

Should've quoted some of the posts before Ethan's... If you don't like him, why not post in another thread and avoid joining the pissing contest?

On to the subject matter:

Ethan: One of my concerns was the stability of the table used to support the speakers. I wonder if that impacted the results, especially in the bass region? Would a stack of concrete blocks performed better, or just differently, or would there be no change?

JA: Have you any results checking the impulse response (or anything else) of the audio signal from your tests? Or were they solely focused on cabinet vibration? A very worthwhile article, and I appreciate your providing link, but it seems to me related to but different from what Ethan tested. And both seem worthwhile...

Curious - Don

thedudeabides · Feb 9, 2016

DonH50 said:
Should've quoted some of the posts before Ethan's... If you don't like him, why not post in another thread and avoid joining the pissing contest?

Planning on doing that exact thing. Have fun gentlemen.

dallasjustice · Feb 9, 2016

Just because you measure an impulse in close proximity to the woofer, doesn't mean you are measuring the woofer's impulse. Your measurement must at least be windowed. Even if it does window out the room reflections, it won't be accurate or helpful to know whether the recoil stabilizer DOES improve the impulse.

Don's suggestion about using an anechoic chamber at his local university sounds like a great idea. I agree that this is an interesting topic worthy of further investigation.

Ethan Winer said:
Ah, I totally missed your point! I thought you meant you wanted me to measure from even farther away, in order for REW to pick up more of the room or some such. The first test I did was about 15 inches away, and I still have that data if you care to see it. But as I mentioned in my article, being that close made it even more difficult to repeat the speaker placements for each device. And small differences made even more change in the measured response. So the response varies 2-3 dB instead of only 1-2 dB. I'm pretty confident that all changes in that first tests were due entirely to placement because the waterfalls show no difference in decay times. But I accept that my tests aren't perfect, and I hope they'll encourage others to do more tests. That's how science works! And I'm glad to see hard data showing a situation where isolation really does make a difference in case I missed something.

--Ethan

Gregadd · Feb 9, 2016

Ethan Winer said:
This will be my only comment about Ethan being banned or un-banned:

Why is it so important to some people that opposing positions be censored and prevented from reaching anyone, including people who might want to hear those positions? I object to lots of things I read and see on TV, such as the opinion shows on Fox News that I believe do real damage to our country. But never in a million years would I suggest that Fox doesn't have a right to speak or be heard. If I don't like it I can change the channel! So why does anyone object to me saying stuff even if they disagrees with you vehemently?

This is a serious question and I'd really love to know the answer.

--Ethan

When you talk about censorship you can't possibly be referring to me. When I was a kid I stood up for the weak. I have spent my adult life and legal career defending the weak and unpopular. I paid a heavy price for it. In fact my first participation on an Internet audio forum was spent defending an individual was being attacked because of his ethnicity rather than his position on audio. I also defended a woman who was referered to as a glorified sales girl. She was part owner of a speaker company. Most recently I spoke up for the owner of a digital tweak. All under significant duress, harassment, and to no personal benefit . Although I am a lawyer greater legal minds have written volumes on free speech and not done it justice.
Quite frankly I find your all shocks, gee whiz attitude somewhat disengenuos. You have attacked reviewers, manufacturers, hobbyist with a vengeance. Ad homenim attacks were common. All much to the delight of your followers.
You have what I consider your third chance at WBF. I am powerless to do anything about it. I have already received one veiled threat. I don't know why anyone thinks it will be different .
Unfortunately JA exercised the AL Capone option. He might have at least mentioned tje the Michael Fremer debate.
This is my final word on the subject. My sincere apology to Coach Hermam Edwards.

DonH50 · Feb 9, 2016

dallasjustice said:
Just because you measure an impulse in close proximity to the woofer, doesn't mean you are measuring the woofer's impulse. Your measurement must at least be windowed. Even if it does window out the room reflections, it won't be accurate or helpful to know whether the recoil stabilizer DOES improve the impulse.

Don's suggestion about using an anechoic chamber at his local university sounds like a great idea. I agree that this is an interesting topic worthy of further investigation.

Gated, then windowed, actually.

And thanks! I have now had my one good idea for the year, glad I got the pressure off early!

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