Visit to Avantgarde Acoustic Factory

ddk · Nov 9, 2015

Bill Hart said:
No doubt using full on horns for all ranges is the way to go but size and room? Correct me if wrong, but even the re-booted vintage WE adds bass reinforcement beyond the horns, doesn't it? (Presumably those were bandwidth limited given their original application). Better drivers, yah! Aren't we really talking about a custom built system at this point rather than an existing product?
For what it's worth, my years of experience listening to the Duo +Lamm SET makes issues like "soundstage" and "imaging" largely beside the point. On a good recording, the instruments have an in the room quality. My speakers are a bit out from the back wall.
I was very impressed with the JBL K2 when I heard it years ago with ViVa.
Liked the Cessaro too, when demo'd by Jeff from High Water in a show.
I listen to every kind of music, from old psych to modern classical, country to dumb '70s pop songs. Not advocating any one approach. What's the practical answer there Bonzo- to get the speaker you want to hear? And, sorry didn't look up your profile, what are you presently using as benchmark? (Not into 'gear talk' per se, in the sense of playing one upmanship, those who know me know I'm actually pretty agnostic).
PS: and what is David using for bass with his Bionors? He's got a big horn system and has been around the block a few times....

The Bionors are full range, they go down to 50hz but in room measure in 30hz range.50hz is workable frequency range that I can properly augment the sound with passive subs. Currently I'm using JBL B460 subs (18") with a custom low pass tube crossover. I was getting away using Lamm ML1's (90w push/pull) on the subs when Steve was here but I've tweaked the room since and replaced the low pass xover's tubes with NOS vintage ones and am back to the SET ML2's. Contrary to popular belief properly designed SETs have the purest and most realistic bass, you can still hear/feel? the difference in subs even at these extremely low volumes. The bass is quite excellent with the ML1 but I now find that its a little bit too good with an unwanted wow factor that is noticeable.

You're spot on with your Lamm+Duo observations Bill and the K2's are phenomenal speakers but also the last low wattage SET friendly K2's was the M9500, you need a lot more power and current for the subsequent models.

david

bonzo75 · Nov 9, 2015

caesar said:
Thank you! Seems like in this hobby you need several systems, depending on your tastes, and both tube and SS amps for each system.

What were some of the musical selections that you guys played, out of curiosity?

I played Mahler 2 (channel classics, Ivan Fischer), Mussorgsky pictures (Reiner, living stereo), Bach cantata choral, duets, all on digital. I played Bruch (Oistrakh, Decca), Schubert winterreise, Espana on vinyl.

That said I have before played the above CDs plus symphonic dances, cecilia Bartoli's vivaldi album, scherazade (Reiner, living stereo), stairway to heaven and since I have been loving you from Led Zep's live albums on it. Also Lalo Schifrin's blues in the bassment. And Bach concertos

Some are high quality quality recordings, some not.

Ron played non-classical vinyls. I knew ACDC well, he also played Leonard Cohen songs but by a female vocalist, and I will let him add his

jdza · Nov 9, 2015

This picture from Avantgarde shows where the power to the basshorn went:

Despite Avantgarde's claim that they reinvented the laws of Physics, there is simply no way a horn with a length of 55 inches and a 3'x 3' mouth can reach much below 100Hz if that low. So Avantgarde uses long throw bassdrivers and equalise for their vastly lower efficiency below horn cutoff. This means that for most of its designated bandwidth that fancy horn is simply an ordinary box.The last picture clearly shows the increased amplifier delivery below the horn resonance to compensate for the horn suddenly becoming a non horn.No values are given but they do state that the resonance of the bass driver is at 18Hz so the horn resonance(cut off or where it stops functioning as a horn) appears to be at 100Hz (first picture).

Ordinary bass boxes need lots of power,hence the high powered bass amplifier, long throw drivers and high volume rear chamber

This is what an 18Hz horn really looks like

?????
??????

ddk · Nov 9, 2015

caesar said:
Gentlemen,

I am a bit unclear as to why Avantgarde would create, and individuals would run, such high powered SS amps to run these ultra high efficiency horns.

I imagine tubes may not be to everyone's taste, but high powered SS doesn't make sense either. Can someone please shed light on this? Thx!

Well, Trios can be called efficient when compared to MBLs but not vintage horns. A single sensitivity figure can be deceiving you really need a full frequency range chart plotting the impedence to understand what you're dealing with. The Lamm 18w SETs are borderline with the Trios and imo still insufficient. High quality push/pull tubes and ss will give you a more even sound with the Trios, choice of which is personal good tube amps are very quiet these days. I'm surprised about the 9w amps used in the factory, they can't drive Trios nor any other modern speaker that I know of.

david

bonzo75 · Nov 9, 2015

ddk said:
Well, Trios can be called efficient when compared to MBLs but not vintage horns. A single sensitivity figure can be deceiving you really need a full frequency range chart plotting the impedence to understand what you're dealing with. The Lamm 18w SETs are borderline with the Trios and imo still insufficient. High quality push/pull tubes and ss will give you a more even sound with the Trios, choice of which is personal good tube amps are very quiet these days. I'm surprised about the 9w amps used in the factory, they can't drive Trios nor any other modern speaker that I know of.

david

Hi ddk you are right. Like I said the 9w was good on the tone, on the bass the SS was better. It had more oomph. So I suggested biamping, or a more powerful valve

marslo · Nov 9, 2015

My Ayon Crossfire is SET rated 30 WPC. The volume control starts at 43 ( resistor ladder) , loud music is 25, best RR HrX at 15 ( when less distortion one can put the volume higher) . Redbook and vinyl at 20 are hard to support for longer than a few minutes.
So my point is that valve amp must have enough power to operate with max 50-60 % . Then bass is rich, well controlled and very organic. When I compared my 30 WPC SET with XA ss design I had the impresssion that with 50 % of maximum power valve amp played louder.
BTW, Duo Omega are like biampig cause active subs have 250 W A/B amps built in.

My concern about new Duo XD series is about their built in D class amps which afaik have SMPS instead of linear power supply .

ddk · Nov 9, 2015

bonzo75 said:
Hi ddk you are right. Like I said the 9w was good on the tone, on the bass the SS was better. It had more oomph. So I suggested biamping, or a more powerful valve

For Trios stick with more power and a largish room.

Ron Resnick · Nov 9, 2015

ddk said:
For Trios stick with more power and a largish room.

Dear DDK, What do you make of the designer of the Trios informing me that no perception of increased depth (no increase in sense of front-to-back "sound-staging") is to be gained from pulling the Trios into the room and away from the front wall?

I am used to hearing sound conjured up from behind panel and dynamic driver speakers when they are several feet in front of the front wall. Why would horns be any different?

ddk · Nov 9, 2015

Ron Resnick said:
Dear DDK, What do you make of the designer of the Trios informing me that no perception of increased depth (no increase in sense of front-to-back "sound-staging") is to be gained from pulling the Trios into the room and away from the front wall?

I am used to hearing sound conjured up from behind panel and dynamic driver speakers when they are several feet in front of the front wall. Why would horns be any different?

Depends on the recordings but in general soundstage and perceived depth works differently with horns, unlike boxes and panels pulling them out way into the room won't increase depth unless you're using subs. I don't know how close to the rear wall they had them setup but I'm certain that they know their room better than anyone else, I wouldn't second guess their speaker setup. If you like depth turn your MLs around and listen from behind with them firing forward, works with Quads too.

david

KeithR · Nov 9, 2015

Thanks for the great writeup, Ron! Excellent.

Bonzo75- you seem to suffer from analysis paralysis. Audio shouldn't be so difficult!

bonzo75 · Nov 9, 2015

KeithR said:
Thanks for the great writeup, Ron! Excellent.

Bonzo75- you seem to suffer from analysis paralysis. Audio shouldn't be so difficult!

Where did I say it was? I am quite clear - full range horns, followed by panels, no boxes.

ddk · Nov 9, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Dipoles have the same amount of energy from the front and from the back, I agree that horns have a shallower sound stage than conventional speakers ,I presume this is because they are more directional?
Keith.

Or more "Natural", depending on your POV!

david

ddk · Nov 9, 2015

bonzo75 said:
I am interested in exploring the possibilities of using bass horns for non horns, like Panels. Analysis Audio + Bass Horns anyone?

Also, if one changes the drivers in the trios to say, TAD compression drivers, can the XD help it adjust easily to integrate with the bass horn?

Shouldn't be a problem at all just not sure if its needed or not. I only heard the Analysis speakers at Nick's where you visited and his room can't hold bass but I know the Divas well and they don't need anything when driven with the right electronics.

david

jdza · Nov 9, 2015

I am interested in exploring the possibilities of using bass horns for non horns, like Panels. Analysis Audio + Bass Horns anyone?/QUOTE]

Not sure why one would do that. a Basshorn is very difficult to implement and accomodate for less gain in sound quality than horns for the higher ranges.A Basshorn is "the cherry on top" in a full out horn system All the trouble for less benefit if done the other way round.

Also, if one changes the drivers in the trios to say, TAD compression drivers, can the XD help it adjust easily to integrate with the bass horn?/QUOTE]

You want the bass crossover at 200Hz. No TAD compression driver will operate there. They are happier above 800Hz Precious few compression drivers will work to 200 Hz. Most of these are defunct; JBL 2485,2482,JBL 2490, an Emilar model and the Altec 290 Giant Voice(290) plus some exotic,fragile,hellishly expensive ALE and Goto models. Avantgarde (and Magico) solve this problem by using cone drivers in a small rear chamber for the 200-1000Hz range.Further problem with most of these compression drivers are the small mouths on the drivers,needing excessively long midbass horns. This will make time alignment very difficult in the most critical frequency band. Time alignment at lower than 250Hz is not important( up to a point )but above that frequency it is critical and becomes more so the higher up in frequency you go.

I agree that horns have a shallower sound stage than conventional speakers/QUOTE]

Click to expand...

Horns will image holographically once they are time aligned and in a vertical array.Room treatment is beneficial but totally different areas need to be adressed than the usual.As horns are controlled directivity devices they throw a more focussed soundfield and if correctly aligned will have superb soundstaging but in a limited listening area. The bigger the system the smaller the sweetspot,just like electrostats.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

bonzo75 · Nov 10, 2015

ddk said:
Shouldn't be a problem at all just not sure if its needed or not. I only heard the Analysis speakers at Nick's where you visited and his room can't hold bass but I know the Divas well and they don't need anything when driven with the right electronics.

david

Actually I like Analysis bass for classical, but generally I find that dedicated subs for box speakers produce better quality bass info than the woofer of the speaker itself. With panels and horns because of their speed the subs are limited, if any, and one has to rely on the main speaker. So was just fantasizing.

Ron Resnick · Nov 10, 2015

caesar said:
Hey Ron,

Great write up! If you are considering a second career, audio reviewing should be high on your list! You smoke the vast majority of the cheerleaders who do this job, who are too gutless to mention a product's fault.

Thank you! I am delighted that you liked the write-up!

PS: If someone offers me a second career in audio reviewing I will consider it.

Ron Resnick · Nov 10, 2015

bonzo75 said:
Those who are reading this review should note that Ron switches himself off on SS and digital, and turns himself back on when LP and valves are playing. So I suspect, and he can correct me, that most of his observations are based on the 9w airtight

Bonzo75 is correct. I cannot seem to concentrate or to listen carefully and thoughtfully when I know I am listening to digital.

I can corroborate Bonzo75's view that there was a very noticeable improvement in clarity and transparency when the Avantgarde amplifier was switched to its DC power supply.

Also, I agree that the Trios seem to be very good at allowing one to hear differences between amplifiers. The differences among the Audio Note, the Air Tight integrated and the Avantgarde solid state were not subtle or difficult to discern. My observations at Avantgarde were based on the Air Tight.

Ron Resnick · Nov 10, 2015

caesar said:
What were some of the musical selections that you guys played, out of curiosity?

I played:

"The Rose" by Amanda McBroom, Growing Up in Hollywood Town (Sheffield Lab 13)

"Send in the Clowns" by Bill Henderson, Live at the Times (Jazz Planet Records/Classic Records)

"Landslide" by Fleetwood Mac, Fleetwood Mac (MFSL)

"First We Take Manhattan" and "Bird on a Wire" by Jennifer Warnes, Famous Blue Raincoat (Rock the House Records/Classic Records)*

"I've Got the Music in Me" by Thelma Houston, I've Got the Music in Me (Sheffield Lab 2)

*Yes, I know this is a digital recording.

bonzo75 · Nov 10, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Ked have you spoken to Graham Tricker he was the UK AvantGarde guy for years, he uses Cessaro's 'Liszt' now, I am sure he would be happy to describe the differences.
Keith.

So you agree you didn't set them up properly, and I need to ask him how he sets them up?

Argonaut · Nov 10, 2015

Further to my list of potential candidates~

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JwL7exrHbQw[/video]

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hfMGtap0pQ8[/video]

Substantially less expensive than Cessaro even accounting for Taxation

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